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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Did Feminists Lied/Over Exagerated Women's Victimhood?
Thread: Did Feminists Lied/Over Exagerated Women's Victimhood? This thread is 31 pages long: 1 ... 8 9 10 11 12 ... 20 30 31 · «PREV / NEXT»
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 20, 2014 10:56 AM

But that's not the point of the CoC: whether a person doesn't know better or tries to deliberately provoke a reaction, how should the moderator know? Ignorance IS provocative, when it is worn like something to be proud of, because it's an attitude.

If someone comes up with a provocative opinion, they MUST back it with non-trivial, not-exclusively rhetorical points, otherwise only the provocation is left - and since THAT will lead to, shall we say unproductive and heated talk, the CoC lists that as not allowed.

Now, true, Meroe could just leave it be - but why should she back off? To read something like, See, you've got no points?

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artu
artu


Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted July 20, 2014 11:23 AM

Well, on a personal basis, I would back off because I am very much against almost all censorship for reasons I stated here. But that's just me. Even if it wasn't so, I would still back off because Jemo only refutes his own arguments the more he talks, not to silence him is practical even on a beneficial basis.

The CoC is quite open to interpretation unless there are direct insults. I think the mods are handling the situations rather well in most cases.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 20, 2014 12:38 PM

It's not about censorship. It's about the purpose of a thread (opening post) and how it develops.
That's why there is something like the Volcanic Wastelands. You can make all kind of absurd threads there, and you will likely get just as absurd answers, if any.

But this is supposed to be somewhat FOR REAL. That's why you can't just come up with "I think, all religion is crap". Fine as an opinion, but the opinion as such doesn't offer much in terms of discussion or debate. So you will need a "... because" and THAT is what you CAN discuss.

I mean, look at OP's issue:

"Did Feminists Lied/Over Exagerated Women's Victimhood?"

In my first answer to the, imo awful op I started with:

Quote:
Quote:
Come to think of it, yes, women were oppressed but I still stand by my belief that feminists over exaggerated it.


What kind of a point is that? Is it the kind of point saying, "come to think of it, yes, the Nazis put Jews in the camps, but the Jews over-exaggerated their victimhood?" And if so, IN WHAT WAY? Is it a "yes, they gassed them, but 6.000.000 is an over-exaggerated victim figure?" If yes, is it more like, "it was only 5.500.000" or is it more like, "heck, not even a million I would say" - or is it more like, "hey, they didn't gas them on purpose - all accidents"?


In other words, I wanted OP to make a statement about how SERIOUS the perceived lies/over-exaggerations were, because without that a discussion makes no sense: we don't live in a perfect world and there are no perfect people, and it is absolutely possible that there IS the odd un- or half-truth or over-exaggeration: the question would be THE RELEVANCE.

Interestingly enough, THAT question never got an answer.

I then closed the post with:

Quote:
That said, instead of writing further nonsense - shouldn't you just try to PINPOINT what it is EXACTLY that is bothering you? I mean, what is your PROBLEM?


This I asked with the following in mind: suppose you make a thread "Did the Jews lie/over-exaggerate their victimhood in Nazi Germany" you would want to know, what exactly was bothering you. This could only be half the thing, because a "yes" wouldn't gain what exactly? There is a CONCLUSION waiting somewhere.
You see, ACTUALLY OP should have read: It's a fact that Feminists Lied/Over Exagerated Women's Victimhood (because of the following points) - and that has the following consequences:

However. OP balked: he answered:

Quote:
Lastly, the purpose of the debate, which is not just my problem but everyone else's problem, is the feminist's over exaggeration of female victimhood. And now that you brought it up, feminists' double standards and hypocrisy too.


He failed to mention, though, what the problem actually IS, and why it is everyone's problem - he failed to mention HIS ACTUAL AGENDA.

Then there is the blatantly ignorant behavior of OP with regard to the Curved Cutie Curie (delivering proof that even a seemingly innocuous feature like AutoCorrect is sexist):

Quote:
Quote:
As for sources, I'm sure you can find this historical record on your own, though it's a fairly well known fact.



if it's well-known, I would have known about it.

Nah, I'm too lazy to look for it. If you want that to be an established fact, you'll have to be the one to provide sources.


How ignorant can it get? Does that look like OP had an interest in serious discussion?

For me, this means, that this thread shoud have long been moved to the VW - now, considering the effort some people made, it would seem too late, but this issue definitely has not been done any justice by the way OP handled this.


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Tsar-Ivor
Tsar-Ivor


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Scourge of God
posted July 20, 2014 01:59 PM
Edited by Tsar-Ivor at 14:03, 20 Jul 2014.

That explains a lot, last night I read through the whole thread in order to absorb the overarching theme, and to find how the line of discussion has evolved. But, there is nothing. It's hollow, there's no discussion, only a few blatant posts that provoked a reaction. Meroe's (and other members') walls of text are easy to read and full of emotion but these are reactionary to JE's poor posts, poor because there's no logical point present in any of them. My point is that I can't post, not without starting something fresh, as I'm unable to latch on to the thread proper because there's no line of discussion that is being developed. Perhaps it's just me, but the first time I've come across this in a OSM thread.
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Lexxan
Lexxan


Honorable
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Unimpressed by your logic
posted July 20, 2014 04:33 PM
Edited by Lexxan at 16:34, 20 Jul 2014.

JJ, you're a smart man, but you're wasting your breath here. Emo has a track record of trolling that literally goes beyond counting. As an addendum to this statement, here's this:

http://i.imgur.com/i2rH32k.png
(ed: couldn't resist )

This is ONE of his... what's it... 20-25 accounts? All on ONE subboard, all roughly talking about the same subject (Feminism Is Evil, Men Are Better Than Women, etc) flooding and spamming and yanking the gaslight up to eleven when he isn't fed attention or when outright flamed. Minsc's [minature giant space] hamster walks in circles, emo talks in them. It's not *WORTH IT* -- Jerri Manthey.



and now On-Topic (warning: presumably utopean rant incoming)

Feminism, meh. I don't really care about it or its male counterpart (Masculinism), mostly because I approve of the present-day gender values in Belgian Society. The men and women are equal to the law, women are generally treated with respect and given the opportunities to pursue whatever carreer paths they want to follow.

Discrimination and bigotry have always existed and, as much as I hate to admit that, it shall always exist. There's little we can do to change that. Feminism, much like anti-racism and anti-homophobia, is  in itself a whip to raise conscieousness about the newest social evolutions. A society, much like every ecosystem in nature, is in a constant state of change and certain action groups (informally refered to as "Social Justice Warriors") keep us aware of these changes. (Whether you accept/follow them is entirely up to you)

Do feminists exaggerate? I suppose some do, what of it? Hard-core feminism can be described as anti-male fundamentalism, but in a democratic society such as ours, such opinions ought to be allowed as long as they aren't used to cause harm to those of contrasting views. Fundamentalism in any form can be dangerous but again, there's little you can do against it before it is too late. If you disagree with this, you can always keep your fingers crossed your country morphs into an Orwellian autocracy that is willing to outlaw all forms of crimethink. In the mean time, my advice would be to "deal with it".

No, I feel it's inherently wrong to try and force people into an opinion (though you can always try to convince others of your viewpoints). The way we can get all forms of bigotry (sexism being one of them) is by starting with ourselves.

Imo, the best way to truly counter sexism requires a few steps.

The first is to accept that men and women ARE different. Biologically, but also personality-wise.
The second is to accept that there's nothing wrong with these differences.
The third is to accept that there's nothing wrong with anything that deviates from the social norm - ie: it's okay to be gay, it's okay to be transgendered, it's okay to pursue a carreer in a job socially linked to the opposite sex, etc.

Finally, there is a Step Zero that everyone imo should take regardless: open your mind and try to understand anything you're either unfamiliar or misunderstanding about. Narrowmindedness is perhaps the biggest of all evils and it would not be bad if we all just worked on trying to find out what makes other people tick. Empathic thinking isn't a given for everyone (including myself) but if well all make the attempt, then we'll be able to minimize the impact of discrimination and bigotry on anyone that dares to not behave to society's norms and make the world a better place.


____________
Coincidence? I think not!!!!

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fred79
fred79


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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted July 20, 2014 05:30 PM

that's a very good post, lexxan. i have a question, though: when you say that "nothing is wrong that deviates from the social norm", does that include the more hated groups? like pedophiles, for example; or people who have sex with animals.

just wondering, i'm not trying to refute anything you say.

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Lexxan
Lexxan


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Unimpressed by your logic
posted July 20, 2014 06:25 PM

Well that's different because the first is abuse, the second is animal cruelty and both are (correctly) considered criminal offenses.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!

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fred79
fred79


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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted July 20, 2014 06:33 PM

i gotcha. thanks.

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Sal
Sal


Famous Hero
posted July 20, 2014 09:34 PM

Gotcha what? He is trapped in his own explanations.

A guy abusing a woman will not be labeled as heterosexual.

A guy abusing a guy will not be labeled as homosexual.

Both will be labeled as rapists and condemned on such justiciable concept.

On this base a pedophile should be perfectly considered inside social norms, until he becomes a rapist.

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fred79
fred79


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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted July 20, 2014 09:51 PM

if you take issue with something that was posted by someone else, don't address me. address them.

if it is something that you take issue with, that i posted, then you'll have to be a little clearer.

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Sal
Sal


Famous Hero
posted July 20, 2014 10:29 PM

Simple rhetoric question, means I don't "gotcha" so easy. Forgot who was the poster above, should have been more cautious

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted July 20, 2014 10:30 PM
Edited by artu at 22:34, 20 Jul 2014.

lexxan said:
Empathic thinking isn't a given for everyone (including myself) but if well all make the attempt, then we'll be able to minimize the impact of discrimination and bigotry on anyone that dares to not behave to society's norms and make the world a better place.

This clearly shows you are indeed satisfied with the point your country has reached. While I agree that Nordic countries and a lot of the Western-European countries like Belgium are the most advanced ones when it comes to fighting gender discrimination, most of the world, and I'm not just talking about Nigeria or Saudi Arabia, I mean China, India, US, Italy, Japan, Turkey, ... and many more, still have a lot to do. So, in most cases, the social norms ARE the problem, not violating them.

It's also important to note, you now have many immigrant citizens with relatively live feudal traditions and they are also part of your country's feminists' problem.
lexxan said:
Discrimination and bigotry have always existed and, as much as I hate to admit that, it shall always exist. There's little we can do to change that. Feminism, much like anti-racism and anti-homophobia, is  in itself a whip to raise consciousness about the newest social evolutions. A society, much like every ecosystem in nature, is in a constant state of change and certain action groups (informally refered to as "Social Justice Warriors") keep us aware of these changes.

This is the exact reason why I respect and support their cause, so it seems quite weird to me to put this after saying "meh." I wouldn't call myself a feminist either though, because I don't directly participate in any activism, and it's not a significant part of my life, not by producing action or contemplation. However, when I am asked about it, I see no reason to not support them.

I'd also say the fundamentalists are usually really rare among these people fighting gender discrimination and unless for the reason of giving some specific example, it kind of blurs the overall look on things when they are constantly mentioned.  

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Lexxan
Lexxan


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Unimpressed by your logic
posted July 20, 2014 10:42 PM
Edited by Lexxan at 22:43, 20 Jul 2014.

"meh" was a bit out of place, I suppose. Let me put that differently. I don't discriminate between genders and it doesn't influence how I would treat you. I treat and judge other based on how they behave themselves in my presence. Gender (much like sexuality and race) is an absolute non-issue for me when it comes to valueing someone. A person cannot control their gender, sexuality, race or background, so why would I judge them for it?

Hence why I recognize the social function of feminism (and mildly sympathize with it), but for me personally feminism itself mostly unimportant. As long as has a benign impact on society, I'm all in for its existence.

Sidebar: Yeah Belgium is really liberal, even for European standards (nb: even the conservative parties support leftist policies such as gay marriage, euthanasia and abortion for instance, which would unthinkable in most countries). It's easy for me to forget that the scope is different in countries such as Turkey, the UK and pretty much every country not influenced by Western Society. Maybe you should all be more like us? (well minus the sisyphian bureaucratic system and absurd taxes, obv)
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!

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artu
artu


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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted July 20, 2014 11:04 PM
Edited by artu at 11:13, 21 Jul 2014.

But "are you a sexist" and "do you support feminism" are entirely different questions. I guess, most men feel uncomfortable relating themselves to it because of the stigma or simply, we feel our masculinity threatened if we call ourselves "that". I never heard anybody say something like, "I recognize the social function of anti-racism but I wont call myself anti-racist because I don't judge people by their race anyway."


Btw, most secular Turks have no problem when it comes to applying Western standards on such issues (not on a Belgium liberal level probably, but still) and when it comes to legal rights (voting, working, divorcing,etc) even the conservative Muslims rarely object here, they do praise the chaste housewife though and think ideal women should behave submissive no matter what their legal rights are.

One must always remember this is not just related to culture but also related to social class. So every country in itself, also has different sets of norms. The usual way working class thinks and the usual way upper-middle class thinks can be quite diverse, so what someone witnesses in their own social circle may not necessarily reflect the whole panorama of their country.

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fred79
fred79


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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted July 20, 2014 11:37 PM

Sal said:
Simple rhetoric question, means I don't "gotcha" so easy. Forgot who was the poster above, should have been more cautious


i was just curious as to his personal thoughts regarding a more expanded view of "nothing is wrong that deviates from the social norm".

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Wolfman
Wolfman


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posted July 22, 2014 02:05 AM

Funny to see the same arguments about the CoC popping up ten years later.
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about my position on any issue.  
Best idea would be to ask.

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Corribus
Corribus

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The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted July 22, 2014 02:45 AM

WarHC. WarHC never changes.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg

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fred79
fred79


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My BS sensor is tingling again
posted July 22, 2014 02:47 AM

lol.

it's people that never change. everyone is a repeat of a repeat.

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DagothGares
DagothGares


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No gods or kings
posted July 22, 2014 02:52 AM

You see time is like a flat circle...

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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.

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The_Polyglot
The_Polyglot


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posted July 22, 2014 04:04 PM

Time's a sort of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey ball.
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Sanity through drugs. Order yours today!

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