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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: What should return and what should not?
Thread: What should return and what should not? This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
Nocturnal
Nocturnal


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted August 28, 2014 12:57 AM

What should return and what should not?

With every iteration we have faced new mechanics and new gameplay elements were introduced to the game. Some were hideous and some were awesome. Instead of numerous topics like "should like give double damage" "should we have elemental skills" and so, I wanted to discuss all this under the same topic. So, in H7, which innovative elements should return for you, and which shouldn't?

What I want:
-The complex skill wheel from before should be in the game instead of H6 type fixed skill tree. Powerful subskills requiring certain two or three skills, ultimate skills requiring certain 6-7 skills (like Arcane Omniscience. And the skill categories like "Attack", "Defence" should return.
-Two kinds of upgrades must certainly return.
-Instead of the elemental way the spells in H3 were divided, I'd prefer H5 kinds of spells. Misfortune and Armageddon being in the same category doesn't make any sense to me.
-Hexagons instead of squares. (But that's out of question now
-Area control of H6
-Less movement and weaker attack with the second attack when good morale effect happens (H6)

What I don't want:
- Tears and Blood!
- Dynasty weapons
- Artifacts increasing the duration of your spell (H3) instead of your magic power/intelligence
- Potions (H4)
- Gauge-centered racial abilities (H6)
- Core/elite/champion (H6)
- Luck causing double damage
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frostymuaddib
frostymuaddib


Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
posted August 28, 2014 01:06 AM

I must say that I have almost exact lists . The only thing that I disagree with is:

-Area control of H6 - I hated that feature. It made game too easy and eliminated the need for secondary heroes.. But, a compromise could be made: make it optional (like stationary guards in H4).

I also dislike 'Less movement and weaker attacks', but that is probably because I'm just used to standard mechanics (H3 and H5). Same thing goes with luck


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Pyroxene
Pyroxene

Tavern Dweller
posted August 28, 2014 03:19 AM
Edited by Pyroxene at 03:47, 28 Aug 2014.

I like your initial list. To add on:

Want

1) Spells to be learnt in mage guilds in towns
2) Boss battles (perhaps boss stats can increase with map time taken)
3) More interesting and powerful hero specialties that scale as your hero gets more powerful (something like H5; H6 hero specialties were mostly trivial, +2 luck is rubbish)
4) Fast hero spell casting animation (H6)
5) Spell cooldown (H6, so you don't just keep spamming the strongest spell you have)
6) Hero turns to be anytime your unit gets a turn in the round, and not as a separate creature (ala H5)
7) A great AI that can give me a run for my money without resorting to cheating (H3)
8) Mana-refilling wells to be useable more than once per week (annoying feature of H6)


Don't want

1) Fog of war (H4)
2) Town conversion (H6)
3) Recruitment of secondary heroes that are only 5 levels less than your primary hero (yes I know this can be disabled in multiplayer H6 maps)
4) Creature recruitment to be pooled (H6)
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 28, 2014 03:55 AM

Want:
Spells learned from Mage Guilds (as in H 1-5)
Boss battles
H5-style battles (ATB turns, hero has own turn)
Area control
Multiple upgrades
Skill wheel

Don't Want:
Useless artifacts (H3 had too many of them, for example)
Racial abilities only useful for units of that race
Fog of War
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Warmonger
Warmonger


Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
posted August 28, 2014 06:43 AM
Edited by Warmonger at 06:44, 28 Aug 2014.

Want:

- H5-style skillwheel
- Encourage players to to mix creatures from different factions
- Randomized skills at level-up
- Map editor (possibly also RMG) with Pandora Boxes, Seer Huts & Keymaster Tents
- Split speed and initiative
- Caravans
- Hero gets his own turn (H5)
- Overpowered artifacts (H3 style)
- Adventure spells (H3 style)
- H3 / H5 spell system

Don't want:
- Dynasty weapons
- Blood & tears aka ketchup & mayonese
- Zones of control
- Town conversion
- Racial abilities
- Fighthing heroes (H4 style)
- Ridiculous Catapults (H6 style)
- Core, elite & champion units

That would be my dream game 8)
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ChrisD1
ChrisD1


Supreme Hero
posted August 28, 2014 09:18 AM
Edited by ChrisD1 at 09:24, 28 Aug 2014.

i see a lot of people hate racial abilities? why? racial abilities made the fActions even more distinct and added to the fun.

DON'T
town conversion
that awfull leveling chart from h6
dynasty weapons
and that's that actually! the rest were pretty cool.
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Avonu
Avonu


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
posted August 28, 2014 09:32 AM
Edited by Avonu at 09:55, 28 Aug 2014.

ChrisD1 said:
i see a lot of people hate racial abilities? why? racial abilities made the fActions even more distinct and added to the fun.

Maybe because they work only on your faction units and not at all on neutrals or creatures from other towns? This means that mixing troops is not so good idea like in HoMM1-4.

Now back to topic:
What I want:
- User-friendly and working Map Editor
- Option tab where you can disable some function for mulpiplayer purpose (ban certain heroes/artifacts/spells, etc.) with save option
- Powerful spells for singleplayer mode (Town portal for example)
- Theme based factions not Race based factions
- Ability to mix troops from various towns and not to be restricted by not working racial skills for them
- Some adventure map spells like in HoMM2-3 (set mine guardian, view all, water walk, etc.)
- Ghosts from H1-2 (and peasants for them ) maybe as neutrals (with obligatory ban option in MP games)
- Ability to choose bonus and heroes at the start of map
- Random skills
- And the most important: fun!

What I don't want:
- Bugfest!
- Conflux
- Avatar heroes from H6 - let the player can choose his heroes from all available in tavern
- Spells which are doing nothing (like damage spells from H5-6 that do not scale well, to be useful in late game)
- One faction army only (see racial skills above)
- Heroes artifical level cap in random games (H5 - lvl 40, H6 - lvl 30, it was not enough)
- Boss battles with fixed troops (You gathered a lot of creatures during exploring a map? So now we see how do you fight with this boss when you have 1/10 of creatures. Different creatures. We're not sorry.)
- And probably more, but some choices are already made (tiles battlefield or control zones for example).
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"Details are everything."
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ChrisD1
ChrisD1


Supreme Hero
posted August 28, 2014 10:12 AM

Avonu said:

Maybe because they work only on your faction units and not at all on neutrals or creatures from other towns? This means that mixing troops is not so good idea like in HoMM1-4.

so one or two creatures won't get the racial perk. big whoop.
now if you go for a way mixed army then what's the point of factions?

neither of these two (racial ability or not) is gamebreaking but i always liked my army not being mixed.
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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted August 28, 2014 10:20 AM

Avonu said:

- Boss battles with fixed troops (You gathered a lot of creatures during exploring a map? So now we see how do you fight with this boss when you have 1/10 of creatures. Different creatures. We're not sorry.)



Sorry Avonu, but this was the only way how to make Boss batless fun. I don't belive that any kind of Scaling could be implemented in a balanced way.  this way the batles were fun and sometimes even a chalange. Thhe rest. For what they should be, the Bosses were uterlly Weak and easy when not fighting with a fixed army.

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Avonu
Avonu


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
posted August 28, 2014 10:35 AM
Edited by Avonu at 10:37, 28 Aug 2014.

Dave_Jame said:
Sorry Avonu, but this was the only way how to make Boss batless fun. I don't belive that any kind of Scaling could be implemented in a balanced way.  this way the batles were fun and sometimes even a chalange. Thhe rest. For what they should be, the Bosses were uterlly Weak and easy when not fighting with a fixed army.

I disagree. Do you remember 50SoP last Vein map with Avatar of the Void? That boss was perfect done - you gathered champions through map exploring and you had be very careful with not loosing them too many, because thay what you were have during final boss fight. Meanwhile you could use other neutral creatures to clear map and fight other bosses (or mix them with champions and risk to loose some).
Having a fixed army in HoMM6 was that problem that you have to specific hero to battle bosses. Do you remember Crag Hack's Thunderbird fight? It was designed for him... only. If you wanted to fight as a mage (Falagar), this fixed army was not enough to win.

Heroes Online has other approch to boss battle - limited max number troops in army and 2-to-4 stages battle withour reinforcemnts between them.
____________
"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!

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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted August 28, 2014 10:47 AM
Edited by War-overlord at 10:51, 28 Aug 2014.

Want:
Racial Abilities; (Because I do want Single Faction Armies)
Faction Alligned Neutrals, Heroes IV Style. So Faction units only recruitable outside towns;
Non-faction Alligned Neutrals;
Caravans working on outside dwellings;
Decent Storytelling, because let's admit it, decent is two steps up;
Factional Warmachines (even if only in appearance);
A warmachines ability that allows me to aim the damn things;



Want Not:
Being screwed by the random skills all the time. Either make randomness an option of give me the ability to reroll;
Permanently overstretched Economy, like Heroes II (and III up to a point). If I got a capitol, a market and a mine of everything, I should not have to worry too much about my economy anymore (Edit if I only have one town;
Fog of War;
Mine Chase Fests;
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Iron from Ice.

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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted August 28, 2014 11:02 AM
Edited by Dave_Jame at 11:27, 28 Aug 2014.

Avonu said:
Dave_Jame said:
Sorry Avonu, but this was the only way how to make Boss batless fun. I don't belive that any kind of Scaling could be implemented in a balanced way.  this way the batles were fun and sometimes even a chalange. Thhe rest. For what they should be, the Bosses were uterlly Weak and easy when not fighting with a fixed army.

I disagree. Do you remember 50SoP last Vein map with Avatar of the Void? That boss was perfect done - you gathered champions through map exploring and you had be very careful with not loosing them too many, because thay what you were have during final boss fight. Meanwhile you could use other neutral creatures to clear map and fight other bosses (or mix them with champions and risk to loose some).
Having a fixed army in HoMM6 was that problem that you have to specific hero to battle bosses. Do you remember Crag Hack's Thunderbird fight? It was designed for him... only. If you wanted to fight as a mage (Falagar), this fixed army was not enough to win.

Heroes Online has other approch to boss battle - limited max number troops in army and 2-to-4 stages battle withour reinforcemnts between them.


Actually just finished it today. and I disagree with you. I'll try to explain why The example you give is more in favore of "Fixed armies" vs "Not fixed".

The map you gave as an example was an RPG focesd map with almost no features of kingdom developement, No active enemies, rather linear (4 elemets->Light->Inferno->Dark->Finall Boss). There were very few options hot to get troops, Most of them vere quest related and determined from the start only core and elite neutral units had lairs, and onle one for each creatur. Compared to maps with Bosses in the original game, which could be approached freelly so you could grind an insane and unnescesaraly large numbers of units, the final map of 50SoD and it's boss were very streamlined.

The approache of a slow gathering of units, with limited acces to them may be interesting, but it was for the price of several core game features like Town developement, Economy management, Creature developement and several other have been reduced to uslessness.

In my opinion, the best boss in the game was the Thunderbird on the first map of PotSS. The map itself was also devided into several parts that chained acording to the story, But even so, it was not for the price of the features listed above. And the Boss itself? one of the most chalanging and well desinged in the game.

You said that Fixed boss battles are no fun, but you gave an example of an entire fixed map. At the begining there are pre-defined units tha will join you, or you will get as a reward, onle 4 neutrals have something like a normal growth. This number raised with each boss you overcome but still, your main source of creatures were the scripted events.
What is better? Chain us from the start, to give us the feeling like we are not cheated in the end. Or Give us freedom for the small price of an ilogical but balanced final fight?

Bosses in the vanila game vere just a grind fest, time was the only thing you needed to win. Atleast the fixed ones were what they should be. A chalenging fight to test our skills at the end of a long game.
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We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.

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ChrisD1
ChrisD1


Supreme Hero
posted August 28, 2014 12:19 PM

War-overlord said:


Want Not:
Being screwed by the random skills all the time. Either make randomness an option of give me the ability to reroll


getting the best of what was given to you was the fun part. rerolling is another face of  the skill system we got in heroes 6. everybody will reroll to get the same stuff. in the end no surprise and no originality.
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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted August 28, 2014 12:31 PM

ChrisD1 said:

getting the best of what was given to you was the fun part. rerolling is another face of  the skill system we got in heroes 6. everybody will reroll to get the same stuff. in the end no surprise and no originality.

I don't realy care about that. I want to get the stuff I want and I've rarely gotten it. Being forced to play ways I don't want to isn't fun for me.
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Iron from Ice.

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ChrisD1
ChrisD1


Supreme Hero
posted August 28, 2014 12:43 PM

War-overlord said:

I don't realy care about that. I want to get the stuff I want and I've rarely gotten it. Being forced to play ways I don't want to isn't fun for me.

but won't you get bored when you replay with the exact same perks?
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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted August 28, 2014 12:59 PM

ChrisD1 said:
but won't you get bored when you replay with the exact same perks?

Who says I play the same way when I play a second time?
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Iron from Ice.

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Nocturnal
Nocturnal


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted August 28, 2014 02:20 PM

-About racial skills:

I don't want the racial skill system from H6 which was based on a gauge in the battle and was simply boring.
BUT the H5 racials were simply great imo. "Artificer" for example. It gave a whole new dimension to Academy. And I can't even imagine an Inferno faction without Gating.

Maybe a new function of converting troops can be added. For example (giving the example from H5) you are an inferno hero. You want to recruit Rakshasas. In your town you "infernalize" them. "Defence of the creature drops %X, luck increases by 3 points." And a certain infernal look to the creature.

-About skills

I want the combination of H5/H3 skills and H6 free choice table. Meaning: the skill wheel will be as huge and complex as the H5 one, and thus, you can only get 5 main skills and 3 subskills and all of them require something else but instead of them coming in front of you randomly after level up, you choose them.

I don't know about you, but in H5, everytime before I started a new game, I opened the fan manual and written a skill set I want for my hero. And it was different for every, say, Academy hero. Now I only want to actually get them instead of praying to get them. Because it will be different every time.

- People who don't want town conversion must explain that to me. Because I can't find any reason for disliking that. If a hero's becoming too powerful is the problem, maybe a "destroy town" option instead of conversion can help?
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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted August 28, 2014 02:28 PM

Nocturnal said:

- People who don't want town conversion must explain that to me. Because I can't find any reason for disliking that. If a hero's becoming too powerful is the problem, maybe a "destroy town" option instead of conversion can help?

I personally like it myself. But it has to do with all the singular-faction hate and it being too powerfull not to do it for the min-maxers, from what I can gather from the posts I can be bothered to read.

And it has to do with general HeroesVI hate. It was in HeroesVI, HeroesVI was bad, so this is bad as well.
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Iron from Ice.

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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted August 28, 2014 03:28 PM

War-overlord said:
And it has to do with general HeroesVI hate. It was in HeroesVI, HeroesVI was bad, so this is bad as well.

or it was badly implemented, that's another posibility.

I can understand why people want this feature (playing a map and getting bad luck with random towns can make a big difference), but I'm a lover of mixing factions...

However, I could live with town conversion as long as it requires a significant investement (both resources and time!).
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ChrisD1
ChrisD1


Supreme Hero
posted August 28, 2014 03:41 PM

War-overlord said:

Who says I play the same way when I play a second time?

wouldn't your goal be the optimal growth of your hero? so after a while some skills that are not that usefull for your gameplay, would they be shunned given the choice to? of course all these things depend on the map and the circumstances, but i loved the randomness while leveling up it was refreshing and kept me interested and surprised all the time.
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