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| Thread: Regarding the Magic System |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 08, 2014 10:58 PM |
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It's actually the other way around. Now it's more needed than ever.
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Protolisk
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 08, 2014 11:05 PM |
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Stevie said:
I wouldn't like such a system. Sure, it may have worked with Heroes 3 but I think now it's obsolete. Having one skill that grants you all the spells in existence is ridiculous to me. The way of acquiring spells should be more restrictive and I think that learning them by specializing in their separate schools is the right choice here.
Elvin said:
It's actually the other way around. Now it's more needed than ever.
I agree to this. In order to acquire the spells? One skill. To enhance and perfect spells/spell groups? A whole different beast.
(this is assuming Elvin was replying to Stevie...)
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 08, 2014 11:13 PM |
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Indeed I was.
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted September 08, 2014 11:18 PM |
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Stevie said:
You're arguing a highly unlikely scenario here. I don't think anyone thinks in those terms, like skilling a magic school just because they want one single spell. They are surely considering other spells from that school too.
You never played H3, did you? 
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foxxxer
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 08, 2014 11:21 PM |
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Come on, Elvin, spill it.
Is this the idea of Limbic - one skill like H3 Wisdom?
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted September 08, 2014 11:26 PM |
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JoonasTo said:
Stevie said:
You're arguing a highly unlikely scenario here. I don't think anyone thinks in those terms, like skilling a magic school just because they want one single spell. They are surely considering other spells from that school too.
You never played H3, did you?
He is too young for that!
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 08, 2014 11:46 PM |
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It's important to remember that while H3 had one skill for learning spells, it had four additional skills for enhancing them. Five if you count Sorcery, but lol Sorcery. This may be a good way to do it - with a Wisdom skill, you can learn any spell, so enemy Mage Guilds are always useful, but there's still room for you to specialize in particular skills.
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Eccentric Opinion
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted September 09, 2014 08:04 AM |
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Wisdom only seems like a wasteful skill if you dont think of the percs it can get you. For instance it could unlock sorcery, intelligence and resistance. Resistance could have the shatters, intelligence the stat bonuses and sorcery the damage and manarecovery as sub-perks. You could even do awawy with the enlihtment skill this way or incorporate a nerfed version of its bounses into the wisdom skill. This would add replaybility as well since haveing a what seems like a must have skill only allow you to take 3 of these perks.
This way they could turn 3 different magical skills into 1 and still have 8 magic skill (7 magic schools + wisdom), which is still a LOT. Haveing this many skills I think requires atleast 8 skillslots like H3, but that is not a problem in itself, but that would raise the level at which a hero is maxed out (level 50 vs. level 30 in H6).
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 09, 2014 08:15 AM |
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Elvin said:
It's actually the other way around. Now it's more needed than ever.
Well I disagree 100 % with this. The more spell schools there are, the more powerful you make a skill that gives access to all high-level skills. Wisdom was already a no-brainer in Heroes 3, and I'm not just saying something you wanted most of the time, or 90 % of the time, or even 99 % of the time - no, you wanted Wisdom ALL games, and not getting Wisdom was a default rage-quit. That's NOT good game design.
Going back to such a system would be a terrible downgrade imo. I do agree that having 7 magic skills in the game that each only give access to their (probably rather limited) set of spells is not ideal, but then again, that is the inherent problem of having that many spell schools. It is however the least bad solution to a bad situation that they have brought on themselves.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted September 09, 2014 08:27 AM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 08:32, 09 Sep 2014.
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since the spells will be fewer with all those schools what if academy's racial was to be able to learn 3 or 4 more spells than any other hero normally would learn?
maybe since there are soo many schools,any hero will just have an extra slot for learing an extra magic school? but this slot will be only for magic schools not other abilities. i think it would make sense since you don't have to spend "points" in learning the spells.
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted September 09, 2014 08:38 AM |
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I would like to see multiple creeping spells - regeneration, decay, ice bolt, firetrap so whatever the random pick you can always make a living.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 09, 2014 08:43 AM |
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Actually, it was my idea, and while it's a sound idea it, it's not really considering abilities.
It is fairly obvious, there is no reason whatsoever to limit mage guilds to more than the obvious - I already find it a stretch that Haven cannot learn Dark. Are they kidding? It's HUMANS, for frag's sake. Even the dang Inquisition will sit somewhere in a lab studying Dark Magic, and be it just to know what the opposition is able to.
But anyway, ok, Haven cannot Dark, fine. Still 6.
But let's just think ABILITIES for the moment, and you will see that the range of what is actually possible is rather limited.
Assume for the moment - but rest assured, this has nothing to do with reality, it's just a thought experiment - that you say, ok, we just have to give a school enough spells and the guilds enough spells to guarantee a good average, then everything will work. So 5 spell levels, each school coming with 4 3 3 2 2 spells, 14 per school, 84 all in all, double as many as in HoMM 5. There will be similarities, but what the heck.
How many spells should a mage guild give? Assuming that the spells of 6 (all in Academy) schools show, getting an average of 4 per school +1 will guarantee, that you will have at least 1 school with 5 spells. That's 25 spells
So that means 7-6-5-4-3 spells in the guild which looks good, right? You build level 1, and your spell book is FILLED with goodies. Best of all: 7 = 6+1 - one school at least will deliver a double!
But now think abilities. Basically we only have the schools to allow abilities to further work the spells. The Magic skill is fine. Let's say Air Magic, Basic allows learning T3 spells, adds X Power to the casting (or strengthens spells in some other way) and adds +1 to Duration (or even takes 1 off cooldown, should there be one, blergh). But you will want an ability that does something for Lightning based spells: Adds Stun effect to Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning and gives Chain Lightning a 5th target or some such. And a Freeze effect to Cold spells: Adds Freeze effect to Ice Bolt, Deep Freeze and Frost Ring that adds +50% to Fire based attacks and doubles the effect of might attacks. And a Wind ability: Makes Storm Arrows and Grounded more effective.
We have now 3 abilities for 7 spells - there might be 3 more for the other 7, and that's only the basic ones. And we may want better abilities and spell-independent ones.
So the more spells we have, the more abilities we get, and the more abilities we get, the more redundant and blown things will feel.
Also, there would have to be some ORDER in there: with a ton of abilities and spells - how long are you supposed to wait until the ability shows up you need for the spell you have in mind?
Now WISDOM, remember? What will the skill be good for, except learning spells? In abilities, I mean. Must be Magic support, right? Lower spell duration? Cooldown times? Add to Mana? Mentoring (uggh)? All spells get stronger?
Doesn't really feel needed - is already done by the Magic schools.
So the thing would be to find the right number of non-redundant spells and the right guild form, then let the guild deliver a good number of spells - I always felt they were too small anyway. Then find the right abilities. That will make things interesting.
I also find, by the way, that learning two spell tiers for free is way too much. One is enough. Enough of a start to get going, and from then on, if you want to cast, learn a darn skill.
So if it was me, there were only 4 Mage Guild levels. Spells: 3 3 2 2, 10 per school. You'd need a minimum of 6x3 + 1 = 19 spells in the guild to guarantee at least 1 school with 4 spells (and 5 more with 3, but with this setup you'll more often than not get 5 4 3 3 2 2 or some such.
6 5 4 3 would be 18 and possibly the absolute minimum for that shape. You build level 1, and that gives you a lot.
Actually I do think it would generally be more interesting than the controlled setup in HoMM V: You'd get a set of 6 spells on T1, which would give you either an option in all schools - or you had at least 1 clear winner, having already 2 spells from one school.
Now the abilities would have to make sure it would be worth it - but that was true in HoMM 5 already, and with the same number of spells per school, the way would be paved.
How big is the chance to get stuck? Let's say you get 2 Light spells plus 1 each except for Water for the first 6. You pick Basic Light and then an ability that covers one of the two light spells, making it Mass or Area or Bigger or whatever. 12 spells are left to be given - what are your chances to get more Light spells? For tier 2 the chances to get at least 1 more Light spell are (with 3 spells per school and tier) actually at nearly 65%, which is a lot. The chances to get at least another one in T3 (2 per school and tier) are at nearly 58%. Chances of getting no light spell at all in those 2 would be 1/7, roughly, which is fine, because if that happens, another school or schools will suggest themselves.
Having already two schools - what are the chances that you will get a fitting T4? Provided there are 2 spells per school in T4, you have already picked 2 schools, chances to get at least one of those in that 3-spell T4 are nearly 75%!
Fine odds, I think.
You even have a 4.5 % chance to get both T4 spells of one school, and no matter what school that was, it might be an idea to pick it up.
So - I think now, that 6 schools CAN work, but you have to do things differently. There are some dangers: not enough spells in the guild, not enough spells in all, not enough or too many abilities, and so on.
We must also consider the highly situation spells. Best example WORD OF LIGHT! You do not want that spell to clutter up your guild, do you? Getting it when you fight Haven? Great. So that's an ability: Grants Word of Light, bla bla. Looking into HoMM VI, class abilities and stuff, you can find some, adding to the abilities on one hand, making it necessary to be pretty tight with the actual spells, that you can work with and get stronger due to Power and abilities.
That leaves probably a very tight number of really useful and unique spells to work with. It's also a chance to combine random and planned. Like with WoL - playing Necro or Inferno or so, WoL may be good to have, so get it via ability. Earthquake might be another, depending on how dearly magic support is needed to crack walls.
But it can work with 6 schools, no question about it.
And you don't need Wisdom.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 09, 2014 09:12 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
So if it was me, there were only 4 Mage Guild levels. Spells: 3 3 2 2, 10 per school.
Did you just advocate for spell schools with only 10 spells in them? 
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 09, 2014 09:45 AM |
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Elvin said:
It's actually the other way around. Now it's more needed than ever.
LOL! You're the last person I thought would say that. Incredible. How would you like DoC with all heroes having access to all spells? How would you like MMX, huh? It would be the end of any replayability. A no-brainer skill so OP that picking it would not even be a choice.
And I don't get you all. Why is there a need for you to get ALL spells in existence? Just because? That would just be very convenient without any purpose. And as I said, that would mean 0 replayability, because each and every time you'd get the same.
There is NO need to get all spells. The point of having separate skills for each magic school is so that trading your level-up points will make it hard for you to get all the spells at the expense of other skills. Like, you wouldn't want to get 6 schools of magic with no logistics, no defense, no luck when obviously 2-3 schools would do!
alcibiades said:
Well I disagree 100 % with this. The more spell schools there are, the more powerful you make a skill that gives access to all high-level skills. Wisdom was already a no-brainer in Heroes 3, and I'm not just saying something you wanted most of the time, or 90 % of the time, or even 99 % of the time - no, you wanted Wisdom ALL games, and not getting Wisdom was a default rage-quit. That's NOT good game design.
Going back to such a system would be a terrible downgrade imo. I do agree that having 7 magic skills in the game that each only give access to their (probably rather limited) set of spells is not ideal, but then again, that is the inherent problem of having that many spell schools. It is however the least bad solution to a bad situation that they have brought on themselves.
Exactly this.
alcibiades said:
JollyJoker said:
So if it was me, there were only 4 Mage Guild levels. Spells: 3 3 2 2, 10 per school.
Did you just advocate for spell schools with only 10 spells in them?
Deciphering JJ again?  I think he wanted to say 10 spells in total in the guild. Only 10 spells per school would be too few.
Other than that, I don't like how he builds his magic guild. I think that the classical 5 levels are just too iconic to be scrapped off. So working with that, I think that 4 3 3 2 2 would be the best. I'm kinda inclining for a 5 4 3 2 1 too like seen with Heroes 3 but I think that'd force having too many low level spells and few high-level ones. I don't think that's ideal when you want to have a powerful high-level pool of spells to reward the skilling of the respective schools.
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted September 09, 2014 10:21 AM |
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Edited by RMZ1989 at 10:23, 09 Sep 2014.
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Why exactly would 10 spells per school be low? In H5 we had around 10 spells per school and we have 4 schools only, now that we have 7 and that you will always have some combination of spells, that is more than enough in my opinion.
It is also easier to balance, with too many schools and spells balance would be pain in the ass and there would also be spells that are clearly better than others and that you will always want.
It would also be easier to make spells unique, and not just a copy from one school to another with different name.
With JJ's 3-3-2-2 system, and if we include 4-6 schools per Magic Guild, you will have just enough variations of spells that you can get in my opinion. If you want more than 10 spells per schools, for example 15 or 20, you will see some spells once in a blue moon...
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Give a man a mask, and he'll
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 09, 2014 10:48 AM |
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I think 15 is a better number. Not that we have to have a specific number for spells. Tribes had 12, Heroes 3 had almost 20. One felt too lacking, one felt too redundantly abundant. So I think 15 spells per school is just about right. Not too many, not too few, but quite balanced.
And just one motive that JJ's system won't work is the fact the we will most likely not get a magic guild with 4 levels and 3 3 2 2. We'll probably get a 5 levels one with a spell distribution similar to Heroes V.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 09, 2014 11:03 AM |
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RMZ1989 said:
Why exactly would 10 spells per school be low? In H5 we had around 10 spells per school and we have 4 schools only, now that we have 7 and that you will always have some combination of spells, that is more than enough in my opinion. (...)
With JJ's 3-3-2-2 system, and if we include 4-6 schools per Magic Guild, you will have just enough variations of spells that you can get in my opinion. If you want more than 10 spells per schools, for example 15 or 20, you will see some spells once in a blue moon...
Well, H5 had too few spells in each school (and too few spells overall), so that sort of underscores my point ...
But yeah, I get it, with 7 schools of magic (bleh) you can't have much more than 10-12 spells in each school unless you are going to create an unrealistic amount of spells. Which, once again, is why 7 schools of magic is just a downright horrible idea.
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted September 09, 2014 11:07 AM |
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Stevie said:
I think 15 is a better number. Not that we have to have a specific number for spells. Tribes had 12, Heroes 3 had almost 20. One felt too lacking, one felt too redundantly abundant. So I think 15 spells per school is just about right. Not too many, not too few, but quite balanced.
And just one motive that JJ's system won't work is the fact the we will most likely not get a magic guild with 4 levels and 3 3 2 2. We'll probably get a 5 levels one with a spell distribution similar to Heroes V.
Well 5 levels of Magic Guild is still fine, but H3 had 4 spell schools with ~20 spells in each school and H5 had also 4 spell schools, ~10 spells in each school but Magic Guild had 2-3 Schools(some faction had more).
Now, if we have the same system in H7, but 15 spells per school and 7 schools, 6 schools per Magic Guild... I can say good luck in getting spells you wish for.
Yes, I like randomness in Heroes franchise and how you need to adapt to it but this will be way too random. You might as well add all 105 spells to one school and just separate them by tiers because it wouldn't matter at all, you will have a ton of spells and they will be different every game.
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Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted September 09, 2014 11:12 AM |
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alcibiades said:
Elvin said:
It's actually the other way around. Now it's more needed than ever.
Well I disagree 100 % with this. The more spell schools there are, the more powerful you make a skill that gives access to all high-level skills. Wisdom was already a no-brainer in Heroes 3, and I'm not just saying something you wanted most of the time, or 90 % of the time, or even 99 % of the time - no, you wanted Wisdom ALL games, and not getting Wisdom was a default rage-quit. That's NOT good game design.
I think part of the reason was the way in which spell damage was calculated. Take for example Lightning Bolt, the damage at no/basic level was (power*25)+10, but the expert damage was (power*25)+50, a difference of 40, or 65 if one of those level-ups netted you +1 power. Now take Heroes 5, at untrained level, the damage is (power*11)+11, whereas at expert it is (power*20)+20, so if you have a mage with say 5 power, the damage between untrained and basic is now 54, and raise it to 7 power and the difference is raised to 72 (160-88). In this sense Heroes 5 was much better, since there was now a solid difference between a spell cast by an untrained mage and one cast by an expert mage.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 09, 2014 11:32 AM |
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15 spells per school is WAY too much. You have to keep abilities in mind - you will want some spells to give as abilities only, and you will want to boost spells with abilities, so 15 spells either means a dozen abilities or a lot of spells covered by some of them, which isn't good.
Also, the more spells you have the bigger the difficulty in balancing and the bigger the chances to get uneven distributions.
15 spells would be something like 5 4 3 2 would be 14, and that would give you 30 possible T1 spells for the guild. The spread is too big.
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