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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Which Phoenix Do You Want to See?
Thread: Which Phoenix Do You Want to See? This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT»
Steyn
Steyn


Supreme Hero
posted September 21, 2014 01:19 PM

Why have so many people got a problem with a blue phoenix? Everybody who has ever worked with gas burners knows that the blue flame is much hotter than the yellow flame (1600 vs 900 deg Celcius). The best known white flame (burning magnesium) can even reach temperatures of 3100 deg Celcius!

Therefore (imo) the silvery-white phoenix should be the upgrade and not the golden one, unless it's explained as the older phoenixes burning with less vigour.

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DarkLord
DarkLord


Supreme Hero
Fear me..
posted September 21, 2014 01:27 PM

i have no problem with phoenix
i have big problem of them being in sylvan line up
they dont fit lore-wise
they already exist as neutrals

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted September 21, 2014 01:30 PM

The colour of the flame is dependent on the fuel, salt fires burn blue for example, despite being at a much lower temperature. Also, blue is not a colour you can turn steel to by heating it, red, yes, yellow, yes, even white, but not blue.

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Steyn
Steyn


Supreme Hero
posted September 21, 2014 01:43 PM

I chose the gas flame because it can burn both yellow and blue, the colours suggested here for the phoenix. Afaik those blue salt fires cannot burn with a yellow flame, so imo it is not a good comparison to the phoenix situation.

What does it matter what the colours of steel are when you heat it, it doesn't even burn. Also the phoenix is not made of steel (I hope), so I really don't see any connection.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted September 21, 2014 08:48 PM

Steyn said:
I chose the gas flame because it can burn both yellow and blue, the colours suggested here for the phoenix. Afaik those blue salt fires cannot burn with a yellow flame, so imo it is not a good comparison to the phoenix situation.
AFAIK wood and coal fires can't burn blue, and since those would be the most common fuels at the time...

Quote:
What does it matter what the colours of steel are when you heat it, it doesn't even burn. Also the phoenix is not made of steel (I hope), so I really don't see any connection.
Molten steel in those days would be the hottest thing most people would be aware of. Personally I really don't see what the colour of gas fires have to do with it either. The fact is, blue isn't a natural flame colour except for salt (CNG/LNG are very rare in nature), so most people, especially in the pre-industrial age, would consider red and yellow to be the colours of fire.

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Steyn
Steyn


Supreme Hero
posted September 21, 2014 09:27 PM
Edited by Steyn at 21:30, 21 Sep 2014.

MattII said:
Personally I really don't see what the colour of gas fires have to do with it either.

Nothing, except that it can burn both blue and yellow, just like Ashan's phoenix

Does it matter what those people think is the colour of fire? I was talking about how the community seems to hate the 'moonix' while I think a blue phoenix is not that far-fetched.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted September 21, 2014 09:43 PM

Red is just more popular Looks better too imo.
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted September 21, 2014 09:49 PM

Yep. Oh maybe blue or purple tinges here and there, but the main colours really should be on the red-yellow scale.

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EPICUSDOOMICUS
EPICUSDOOMICUS


Known Hero
posted September 22, 2014 08:26 AM

DarkLord said:
i have no problem with phoenix
i have big problem of them being in sylvan line up
they dont fit lore-wise
they already exist as neutrals



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To choose to do so is the greatest honor!

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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted September 22, 2014 09:11 AM

DarkLord said:
i have no problem with phoenix
i have big problem of them being in sylvan line up
they dont fit lore-wise
they already exist as neutrals

And that right here is the problem with too descriptive lore.
No versatility.

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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted September 22, 2014 12:56 PM

Avirosb said:
DarkLord said:
i have no problem with phoenix
i have big problem of them being in sylvan line up
they dont fit lore-wise
they already exist as neutrals

And that right here is the problem with too descriptive lore.
No versatility.


This is a nice example of ambiguity in all discussions. On one side. People use the argument that we should not limit ourselves by things like lore and be free in our choices. But more then often, the same people use a similar argument of tradition to highlight the fact that a phoenix has a color generally associated with him.

The question then is what is more important.
The general concept or an Idea
The world and environment
The Visuals and general appearance

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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted September 22, 2014 02:32 PM

Elvin said:
Red is just more popular Looks better too imo.

Fully agree.
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yogi
yogi


Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
posted September 24, 2014 04:21 AM
Edited by yogi at 04:21, 24 Sep 2014.

Steyn said:
(imo) the silvery-white phoenix should be the upgrade and not the golden one


this.
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hammerhand
hammerhand


Hired Hero
posted September 24, 2014 06:32 AM

blue and red phoenix

how do you like this


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jhb
jhb


Famous Hero
posted September 24, 2014 07:52 AM bonus applied by Elvin on 05 Oct 2014.
Edited by jhb at 16:00, 24 Sep 2014.

Dave_Jame said:
Avirosb said:
DarkLord said:
i have no problem with phoenix
i have big problem of them being in sylvan line up
they dont fit lore-wise
they already exist as neutrals

And that right here is the problem with too descriptive lore.
No versatility.


This is a nice example of ambiguity in all discussions. On one side. People use the argument that we should not limit ourselves by things like lore and be free in our choices. But more then often, the same people use a similar argument of tradition to highlight the fact that a phoenix has a color generally associated with him.

The question then is what is more important.
The general concept or an Idea
The world and environment
The Visuals and general appearance


Yes, your right.
Imo, a well fitted world that have some basic concepts more stable is a nice thing to have. It doesn't mean the same thing every time, but at least a certain stability. We could take a look at the Tolkien world, Elder scrolls world, Witcher world, etc.

Messing too much with the phoenix, you are messing with Asha. For me, the same way we understand the dragon god avatars (green/emerald dragon being an avatar of Sylanna), the Phoenix is like an "avatar of Asha", considering it's life/birth (or creational) aspect.

I see the phoenix as an 'bad@ss' cosmological entity that NOT only represents the earth (Sylanna), but it could be a conflux of all the existing elements in the Ashan world, which are represented by the sons and daughters of Asha.
In other words, the phoenix carry the essence of earth (Sylanna), water (Malassa), air (Ylath), fire (Arkath), light (Elrath) and darkness (Malassa), or we could say it carry the essence of the Primordial (or Prime) exalting its "birth and life" characteristic, which we could also understand as its "creational" characteristic/ability. (essence of all combined elements from the sons could be "equivalent" to the creational characteristic of the mother)

"Asha is carefully neutral. She does not show favor to good men or evil men, Dwarves, Elves
or Orcs. All the universe is her creation."

"The Moon is in fact the cocoon she wove around herself. It is an image of the cosmic egg, a
means  to  measure  time,  the  final  resting  place  of  the  dragons  and  the  gate  to  the  Underworld
(where all souls come from and where all they go back after death)."

By the text above, I undestand that the Moon was chosen here to represent the transition of the life cycle (Moon phases) and a transition of worlds (or gate), considering the afterlife state. So transition is the keyword here.

More references here:

The three faces of Asha (the great primordial principles, like Marzhin said):
- The Maiden –Fate –Balance –The Future –Half Moon;
- The Mother –Life –Creation –The Present –Gibbous / Full Moon
- The Crone –Death –Destruction –The Past –Crescent / New Moon

yogi said:
Steyn said:
(imo) the silvery-white phoenix should be the upgrade and not the golden one


this.


I also agree with this. Let me show some passages of the the description:

"The Phoenix is one of the most powerful spirits of Light... as it grows older and more powerful, the sacred bird loses its silver feathers and grows a golden and blazing plumage.

If a Phoenix dies in the material world, its spirit materialises again as a rejuvenated Phoenix, who moves with the zest and velocity of a shooting star. During this "rebirth" process, a part of its original power is instantly subsumed into the pure light..."

We can see more cosmological references here, the "blazing" and "spirits of light" is an analogy to the stars.

However, there is a little "problem" here, when the stars grow old they get less blazing/hot. So I think the description could be adapted to something like: instead of grow old, we could use - when the phoenix reaches maturity, the sacred bird loses its orange/red/yellow/golden feathers and grows a white/blue/silver blazing plumage, as his bond with the stars are stronger, his new feathers are even more incandescent, as they now irradiate pure starlight.

I'm not a good writer and english isn't my native language, so I bet people can find better adjectives for the description. But the general idea is they reaches the maturity = more powerful = hotter = white/silver/blue = stronger bond with stars.





But I'm not sure if there are many fans that love such astrophysical references, like me.
People will probably prefer the traditional orange phoenix.

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Paiazza
Paiazza


Known Hero
لىخ ضل
posted September 24, 2014 08:00 AM

H3 phoenix

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yogi
yogi


Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
posted September 24, 2014 08:15 AM

good post jhb!

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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted September 24, 2014 08:23 AM
Edited by Avirosb at 08:27, 24 Sep 2014.

jhb said:
Imo, a well fitted world that have some basic concepts more stable is a nice thing to have.
If only.

I guess the underlying reason a lot of people find a blue Phoenix weird is that orange and red are both warm colors and more widely associated with fire.

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jhb
jhb


Famous Hero
posted September 24, 2014 08:32 AM
Edited by jhb at 08:33, 24 Sep 2014.

yogi said:
good post jhb!

Thanks!

Avirosb said:

I guess the underlying reason a lot of people find a blue Phoenix weird is that orange and red are both warm colors and more widely associated with fire.

agree.

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Nocturnal
Nocturnal


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted September 24, 2014 02:04 PM

I want to see no Phoenixes.
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