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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: What race do you want as the 6th ?
Thread: What race do you want as the 6th ? This thread is 8 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT»
War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted September 25, 2014 07:12 PM

Stevie said:
What I do think is that Hydra as Sanctuary alternative Champion is possible. It fits the reptilian pattern, does it not? I don't see any reasons for it not to be possible, if you do then please share.

The problem isn't that it is not possible.
It has a far larger history in Dungeon, no doubts about that and given that are like a lot more asiany beasties out there, why shoehorn in a Hydra that people are gonna resent there cause it fits Swamps and Dungeon more.
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Protolisk
Protolisk


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 25, 2014 09:27 PM
Edited by Protolisk at 21:35, 25 Sep 2014.

War-overlord said:
Stevie said:
What I do think is that Hydra as Sanctuary alternative Champion is possible. It fits the reptilian pattern, does it not? I don't see any reasons for it not to be possible, if you do then please share.

The problem isn't that it is not possible.
It has a far larger history in Dungeon, no doubts about that and given that are like a lot more asiany beasties out there, why shoehorn in a Hydra that people are gonna resent there cause it fits Swamps and Dungeon more.


Although I can agree that the Hydra has history with Dungeon, most of it comes from pre-Ashan fluff. In Ashan fluff, we have Naga that are not only from water, there are also the ice naga and in a twist, desert nagas. I feel like if you can have naga in a desert, you could have them in a swamp (which, for a Water based faction living on land, makes the most sense, equal to them living on small islands and near snowy mountains, as all would have an abundance of water). If swamp naga is what we had, would Hydra better fit here?

Furthermore, I'd go as far to say that Hydras are more aligned to swamps and reptiles, which both fueled their connection to Dungeon-esque towns for a while. With H3 Fortress, the Hydra was cast out, as well as Gargoyles, Griffins, and Centaurs. None of those ever returned since, though the Hydra did a few times. However, here, the Hydra was explictly in a swamp faction, with a pond as its dwelling.

Firstly, in Asylum. Here, we didn't have our underground Dungeon of H3, but a swampy town. The rest of the town also had similar "dark nature" buildings, with the Nightmare's "Dark Wood", as well as a need for a Nature Magic annex in order to even build the Hydra Pond in the first place.

Then again in H5. Dungeon is no longer a swamp faction a la Asylum, but instead an underground town. However, here is joined at a lower position than usual, in addition to making this Dungeon a more reptilian Dungeon, on top of the Dragons they so love with the raptors in tier 4 and the T-rex like beasts as hero mounts. Furthermore, our Hydras lived in a cavern, within a cave? That doesn't sound much like a swamp to me.

Once we hit H6, Dungeon seems to be moving away from swampness and the reptilian as they are still underground, and have lost their dependence on reptilian mounts, instead embracing Darkness spirits as well as stronger mammalian beasts, in the form of the rejuvenated Minotaur and the Manticore (it has some insectoid, but it is mostly mammal.)

I feel the Hydra should stay in the swamps, and not take its home underground. If we really wanted to look at "real world" myth, then a pond or swamp it should stay. Also, considering how Sanctuary literally has a reptilian "main race" in the form of the Naga being snake people, as well as the Kappa and Kirin looking pretty scaly/reptilian for spirits, I would say that Sanctuary is in good standing for becoming a predominately reptilian faction. In fact, with the Medusa of Dungeon/Asylum in H3/4 now pretty much being Naga anyways, I see no reason to not have another previously Dungeon aligned unit switching to our slithering companions.

You do have some point with the "origin of myth" argument. On one hand, you have some east Asian mythology fitting into Sanctuary, as the Kirin belongs to the Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, and Koreans, as far as I can see, as well as the Japanese Kappa and all the naming conventions, as well as the Naga from Hindu/Buddhist faiths. So, yes, it may seem weird to have Hydra, being Greek, trying to fit in.  On the other hand, we have Academy, with Golems (Jewish), Rakshasa (Hindu), Djinn (Islamic), and Titans (Greek) all happily under one roof, so you can't say that Academy is a "european faction" as it includes a variety of mythological origins. I don't think "real world" mythological origins really matter much in this case, in response to your "asiany" comment.

Oh, wait, I forgot. You also have this bad boy: Orochi, a giant multi headed snake killed by Susanoo in Shinto mythology. So perhaps Sanctuary could have more ground than you realize.

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ChrisD1
ChrisD1


Supreme Hero
posted September 25, 2014 09:39 PM

xerox said:
I want to see a hybrid between H3 Fortress and H6 sanctuary.

that's exactly what i had in mind when i said throw in some water basilisks and some flies and try to make them a little swampy too. it would be epic!

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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted September 25, 2014 09:41 PM

Protolisk said:
Although I can agree that the Hydra has history with Dungeon, most of it comes from pre-Ashan fluff.

You do realise that most fans care more for the pre-Ashan worlds then Ashan?

Quote:
You do have some point with the "origin of myth" argument. On one hand, you have some east Asian mythology fitting into Sanctuary, as the Kirin belongs to the Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, and Koreans, as far as I can see, as well as the Japanese Kappa and all the naming conventions, as well as the Naga from Hindu/Buddhist faiths. So, yes, it may seem weird to have Hydra, being Greek, trying to fit in.  On the other hand, we have Academy, with Golems (Jewish), Rakshasa (Hindu), Djinn (Islamic), and Titans (Greek) all happily under one roof, so you can't say that Academy is a "european faction" as it includes a variety of mythological origins. I don't think "real world" mythological origins really matter much in this case, in response to your "asiany" comment.

I never claimed Academy to be a European faction and I agree that it is more Levantine/Persian than anything.


Protolisk said:
Oh, wait, I forgot. You also have this bad boy: Orochi, a giant multi headed snake killed by Susanoo in Shinto mythology. So perhaps Sanctuary could have more ground than you realize.

That might be the case and I was not aware of that Orochi, but that doesn't change the fact that it will be hard for many to accept the Hydra in Sanctuary. And this Orochi might well cause similar problems as we had last week in the Unicorn vs. Deer debate.
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Protolisk
Protolisk


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 25, 2014 10:46 PM

War-overlord said:
Protolisk said:
Although I can agree that the Hydra has history with Dungeon, most of it comes from pre-Ashan fluff.

You do realise that most fans care more for the pre-Ashan worlds then Ashan?


Yes. I do know. At the same time, some people care more about the fluff from the universe we are dealing with right now. I like both. I would like to think I understand both sides, and thus I don't lead towards either, but I know I have my personal biases. However, I do like the idea of having the Hydra in Sanctuary, and thus gave other reasons.

Quote:
Quote:
You do have some point with the "origin of myth" argument. On one hand, you have some east Asian mythology fitting into Sanctuary, as the Kirin belongs to the Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, and Koreans, as far as I can see, as well as the Japanese Kappa and all the naming conventions, as well as the Naga from Hindu/Buddhist faiths. So, yes, it may seem weird to have Hydra, being Greek, trying to fit in.  On the other hand, we have Academy, with Golems (Jewish), Rakshasa (Hindu), Djinn (Islamic), and Titans (Greek) all happily under one roof, so you can't say that Academy is a "european faction" as it includes a variety of mythological origins. I don't think "real world" mythological origins really matter much in this case, in response to your "asiany" comment.

I never claimed Academy to be a European faction and I agree that it is more Levantine/Persian than anything.


It isn't so much as you in particular saying "european", but saying "asiany" makes it sound like you can lump them all together by continent/region. Though I can sort of agree with the Persian aspect, they all come from different sections and are more readily known from different areas; Most Golem myths are Polish/Chech, while Titans and Colossi are Greek outright. However, they were given a Persian theme, which binds them in Ashan. Similarly, having Hydras in Sanctuary could still fit by theme if you make them like Orochi, or simply make them "look" more Oriental (though I dread that usage of the word).

Quote:
Protolisk said:
Oh, wait, I forgot. You also have this bad boy: Orochi, a giant multi headed snake killed by Susanoo in Shinto mythology. So perhaps Sanctuary could have more ground than you realize.

That might be the case and I was not aware of that Orochi, but that doesn't change the fact that it will be hard for many to accept the Hydra in Sanctuary. And this Orochi might well cause similar problems as we had last week in the Unicorn vs. Deer debate.


Orochi is pretty much a multi-headed snake (it is a "dragon" in the same way the Chinese/Japanese/so forth dragons are dragons and Wyverns are dragons and the "serpent" in the bible is a dragon: that is, they are magical/divine reptiles) to the point that it is the same (in form) as the Hydra. Multi-headed serpents. One difference is that Orochi is supposed to have many tails too, but notice this: neither the Orochi or the Lernaean Hydra had legs, but our H3/4/5 hydras have had legs. And many more body differences I have talked about before (Cerberus has a mane of snakes, but our Cerberi in H3/4/5/6 do not)

Also, this isn't a case between a magical horned horse and a glowing deer. It's the case between a multi-headed snake and a multi-headed snake. It is much more similar to the Fire-bird -> Phoenix, as they have technically different backgrounds (Fire-bird being Slavic/Russian, and Phoenix being predominately Greek, but in many other cultures too.) They aren't just similar: they are nearly exactly the same in form, just with different mythological backgrounds. Or, it could be like the Roc -> Thunderbird, being a Persian giant bird to a North American giant bird. If you had a Hydra as basic and Orochi as upgraded, it would be very similar to those two, as well as the H2/3 giant (various large humanoids from many cultures)-> Titan (Greek god-like being, in the form of a large humanoid), for that matter. This name change, to me, sounds better than the unimaginative upgrade names of "Deep Hydra" or "Chaos Hydra" or "Foul Hydra".

Even more, we aren't saying this would be two unit choices within a single faction that seemed similar. Just that the Hydra could be in Sanctuary faction, instead of another. These aren't the same argument. Now, if the Orochi and the Hydra ended up in different factions, then you could use the "No double birds" argument, or the "too many dragons" argument, but those still aren't "These two choices are the same" argument. If, perhaps, we voted between the Hydra and Orochi within Sanctuary, then you could argue much like Deer vs. Unicorn. But even then, the similarities in both form and function between Orochi and Hydra out match the similarities of Deer/Unicorn (where I believed the Deer would have the same abilities, but with different form).

Is the only reason you think Hydra belongs in Dungeon is because they used to be? This is the only one I can see, so far. I can understand nostalgia, but, tell that nostalgia to the Medusa, and even the Naga, who used to be in Dungeon-esque and Academy-esque towns respectively. I feel like there are many more reasons for Hydras being in Sanctuary (Two different approaches via real world religion, other units choices following suit, theme tying faction units) than there are for it being in Dungeon (because they were there before). Perhaps you have more reasons for them in Dungeon, and maybe I misconstrued them (as I did with your "asiany" comment, thinking you might think Academy was "europeany" was a bit of a straw man), but I don't see them.

I'd love to hear more reasons as for why Dungeon should retain Hydras instead of Sanctuary.  I'm not trying to be insulting, I just simply don't see it yet. Although I may not agree with them still, I could at least try and see where you are coming from.

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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted September 25, 2014 11:01 PM

Protolisk said:
Yes. I do know. At the same time, some people care more about the fluff from the universe we are dealing with right now. I like both. I would like to think I understand both sides, and thus I don't lead towards either, but I know I have my personal biases.

I care about both as well. But I think some things are too iconic to change unless you're willing to severe its connection throught the entire history.

Protolisk said:
It isn't so much as you in particular saying "european", but saying "asiany" makes it sound like you can lump them all together by continent/region.

I was, but I was rather refering to Eastern Asia, so I should have been more accurate myself.  

Protolisk said:
I'd love to hear more reasons as for why Dungeon should retain Hydras instead of Sanctuary.  I'm not trying to be insulting, I just simply don't see it yet. Although I may not agree with them still, I could at least try and see where you are coming from.
Other then it's extensive history, no, none. I'd rather see the Hydra return to a revived HIII Fortress. And as I've said before, I'd rather not see that combined with Sanctuary, as that's asking for another Infernopolis disaster. And HIII Fortress doesn't have much left, so I'd rather not see what's left spread too thin. Dungeon is an accepted place, but one easily cut loose in favor of a New Fortress. Puting a Hydra in Sanctuary only decreases the chances of a New HeroesIII Fortress ever happening. Of course it would need a new name, but that should be the least of it's worries.
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Paiazza
Paiazza


Known Hero
لىخ ضل
posted September 25, 2014 11:11 PM
Edited by Paiazza at 23:45, 25 Sep 2014.

I've seen in other threads and might have also happened directly on heroes and/or your minds , creatures are distributed in more than one way:

theme based

race based

etymology-mythology based

... so is kind of a hard to tell which creature belongs to which faction, depending on how /creatures/factions themselves are meant to be.

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Sorts
Sorts


Known Hero
posted September 25, 2014 11:17 PM

To be honest, the hydra dwelling was called swamp in H1 and H2, also, want swamp the native terrain (or at least something close to it) for warlock castle in H2. The town screen seems to give that vibe. Actually, even the H1 one, where they were supposed to be a "mountain faction..." look at the ground there, isn't it kinda swamp like?

And yeah, centaurs and minotaurs in a swamp

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Kimarous
Kimarous


Supreme Hero
posted September 26, 2014 12:08 AM
Edited by Kimarous at 00:09, 26 Sep 2014.

(On the original topic and not "where does the Hydra" belong - PS: it's Dungeon )

I'm rather torn on which faction I want in. Well, only sorta torn... if all goes the way people think it is, I'm probably going to side with Dungeon.

If we can get Fortress in, I'm going Fortress - they really deserve more coverage, we'd get a dedicated fire faction, and even more than that, a dedicated fire DRAGON. But let's assume Fortress is completely out of the picture and it's a choice between Inferno and Dungeon. As much as I really, really, REALLY like the H6 variation of PIT LORDS (note my icon and my preference to mention them in all caps), I really don't think Inferno suits the whole "council" thing... best to hold them off to an expansion pack. Maybe if both Inferno and Fortress are left out, said expansion pack could have an overall fire focus/theme.

As for the idea of Sanctuary vs Dungeon... eh, I'd stick with Dungeon. Sanctuary is... alright, I guess, and probably better suited for the council, but... eh. I have a greater affinity for the Dungeon faction, and my mind's eye lights up at the possibilities for the roster, like the Champion options between Black Dragon and either the Faceless* and Hydras**.

* No, I don't care about their decreasing population. They look like Cthulhu-esque dark angels... aaaaaand now I have "Angel of Darkness" stuck in my head.

** See my above comment. I stand with the "Hydra is a Dungeon creature" side.
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Stormcaller
Stormcaller


Famous Hero
posted September 26, 2014 12:55 AM

Never was a fan of Sanctuary and it's japanese theme. Never felt to me like it belongs in Heroes universe.

Albeit I do admit they're practically the most tactical race, relying on equal attack/offense and stuff, which means they are good at everything, but excell at nothing.
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Protolisk
Protolisk


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 26, 2014 02:37 AM

Kimarous said:
(On the original topic and not "where does the Hydra" belong - PS: it's Dungeon )


Yeah, we were getting a bit off topic there. (PS: You are wrong. )

Quote:
As for the idea of Sanctuary vs Dungeon... eh, I'd stick with Dungeon. Sanctuary is... alright, I guess, and probably better suited for the council, but... eh. I have a greater affinity for the Dungeon faction, and my mind's eye lights up at the possibilities for the roster, like the Champion options between Black Dragon and either the Faceless* and Hydras**.

* No, I don't care about their decreasing population. They look like Cthulhu-esque dark angels... aaaaaand now I have "Angel of Darkness" stuck in my head.

** See my above comment. I stand with the "Hydra is a Dungeon creature" side.


Ah, this is what I wanted to see. Something that made no sense to me was how H6 enlisted Celestials and Faceless. It was (seemingly) stated that Angels are roughly equal to Faceless, due to them both being Elder races of equal stature (Light and dark). Supposedly, the Angels killed a bunch of them and the Faceless went into hiding. True, Angels died too, so there should be few of them.

Celestials are *spoilers* created by human souls and Angels' mixed together. There shouldn't be so many of them. Furthermore, they shouldn't be as powerful as a "full" Angel, otherwise Angels would want to kill themselves and be fused together to gain power that way to fight even better than before. If the mixing process was an averaging process, then it should stand to reason that if Human < Angel, then Human < Celestial < Angel. If it is additive, then angels would want it because if helps them fight better. If it was multiplicative or even stronger of a method, then why do we even have Angels in the first place, instead of a full race of Celestials?

These guys are Champions, being extremely powerful yet having few numbers.

Then we have Faceless. Not "Debaucheries" or "Aberrations" made from a fusion of Faceless and Dark Elf. Nope, these are your standard fare Faceless.

These guys are Elite, being moderately powerful yet rather plentiful.

I'm sorry, what? Why in the world are the things that were killed in droves by, yet supposedly equal to, Angels suddenly more numerous and weaker than imperfect Angels? If anything, the Faceless should be much more powerful, as they are still purely Faceless, no muddling with other races making hybrids, and less numerous, because they were killed a lot.

If anything, the Faceless should be a Champion in equal stature to Angels, or if they are still Celestials, then a Faceless should be able to wipe the floor with them. Not the other way around. Unless Celestials are stronger than Angels, in which case Angels are pretty dumb.

Or perhaps they say Faceless are just like ants or something, where you can kill one but the swarm doesn't mind and can still topple larger threats. If so, then this might make sense.

If Dungeon shows up, I am in full support of a Faceless champion if Faceless are indeed powerful. Perhaps they could keep their puppeteer ability, yet still fight by themselves? It'd be a unique inversion of Angels' tactics, where one revives friends so that the Angel and friends can fight, where the other takes command of their enemies so the Faceless' friends don't die in the first place, and still fight.

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Kimarous
Kimarous


Supreme Hero
posted September 26, 2014 03:06 AM

I am fully behind the notion of having Faceless for Champion as well. I was more presenting Hydra as an alternative, but the Faceless option sounds infinitely better, in my humble opinion.
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 26, 2014 07:12 AM

I'm also in favor of Faceless as Champion.

And after reading your replies to WO, Protolisk, I must say that I see more reasons for Hydra/Orochi to be in Sanctuary than in Dungeon.

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adriancat
adriancat


Famous Hero
Protector Of The Peace
posted September 26, 2014 09:09 AM

I think that the Hydra needs to be "ubificated" and turned into a water-aligned creature, belonging to Sanctuary.

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Alex_Yakub
Alex_Yakub


Famous Hero
posted September 26, 2014 09:31 AM

Yay, I'm not the only one wanting faceless as a Dungeon champion, and hydra in Sanctuary
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cleglaw
cleglaw


Famous Hero
posted September 26, 2014 09:45 AM

i dont like faceless /: it reminds me of metal frontmans.. with butterfly wings, lol. i dont know, personal opinion, i dont like them much.

i would like to see some new/ or old&revisiting creatures in dungeon.  i will be okay if some weird thing becomes champion. giant version of a beholder, manticore or entirely new thing.. i just want a large beast/inhuman thing as champions. i want black dragons but since they are considered gods in ashan now, i pass this option.

i'm just brainstorming about this:







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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 26, 2014 09:45 AM

I can see how Hydra can fit into the Sanctuary biosphere, but from a thematical pov. I don't see it as a good match. Hydra has pretty much always been evil/chaotic in its alignment in the Heroes series, and that's not a good match in Sanctuary imo. In many ways, I would find the Hydra more at home in Stronghold, if we needed to find a faction outside Dungeon for it.

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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted September 26, 2014 09:50 AM

alcibiades said:
I can see how Hydra can fit into the Sanctuary biosphere, but from a thematical pov. I don't see it as a good match. Hydra has pretty much always been evil/chaotic in its alignment in the Heroes series, and that's not a good match in Sanctuary imo. In many ways, I would find the Hydra more at home in Stronghold, if we needed to find a faction outside Dungeon for it.

Agreed, but if we needed to find a faction outside of Dungeon, it's just another reason to bring back HeroesIII Fortress.
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Steyn
Steyn


Supreme Hero
posted September 26, 2014 10:04 AM

The naga faction does not necessary have to be like h6 sanctuary. In the savage seas add-on we meet the cult of the wrecker (that was the name right?), of which the members were called medusae. They sounded pretty evil to me and could imo be the perfect base for bringing h3 fortress back. With hydra's!

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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted September 26, 2014 10:11 AM

HeroesIII Fortress + Sanctuary = Infernopolis disaster.
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