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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: deja vu?
Thread: deja vu? This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
cleglaw
cleglaw


Famous Hero
posted October 05, 2014 01:17 PM

fuChris said:

You are makeing my points for me...

There is no charging mechanic other than being able to attack first.



Charging means closing the large distance between in one turn and hitting first. I can imagine hundred ways to that in a game where magic, flying creatures and cavalries exist.

You can even do this with your "old boring slow unit". For example, remove obstecles between you and your enemy with magic, move and atack him. A big suprise for enemy.


fuChris said:

All the risk goes to the attacker, however the defender has the chance to backstab the unit atleast 3 time on their turn...stupid design choice.


You know that both sides will have all the creature types, dont you? Attacker waits, attacker gets shooted by archers.

Defender opened its lines to hit your single attacking creature? Make use of your other creatures to punish defenders cancelled formation as fast as you can.

fuChris said:
If you want to use slow units to guard the flanks then as I said it is a bad use of the unit, either the fast unit loses its edge or the slow unit can not do its role as a rearguard.


Or you can just move them at the same time.

fuChris said:
We do not know anything of the battlefield yet. But I doubt if there will be only space for 1 unit to pass thru so backstab is easy still.


Depends on situation the battle has.

And ofcourse depends on your tactical skills analysing it.

fuChris said:
And flying units? They literally have the option to backstab at every turn... Stupid design choice.


Well, you/enemy can always make use of good positioning.

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dark-whisperer
dark-whisperer


Famous Hero
Darkness feels no mercy
posted October 05, 2014 01:22 PM

What do you mean archer cant backstab in melee? They can move as any other unit. I think its fair that creatures that can freely shoot you from a distance have penalty in melee, but that doesn't prevent them from moving away or moving around unit that is engaging them in melee.

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fuChris
fuChris


Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
posted October 05, 2014 01:48 PM
Edited by fuChris at 13:50, 05 Oct 2014.

RMZ1989 said:

And if they are flanking, this means that they are exposing themselves to flanking, now that is a bad use of a unit. Being able to flank doesn't mean it is always the right choice, especially because if you are flanking someone on his side of the battlefield, you are turning back to all of his other units and you will probably lose that unit before it even manages to attack for second time.

If back is guarded by unit that is made for defensive use/guarding, than I don't see it as a bad use of that unit.

To me it seems like that you are looking at the whole thing in a vacuum.



If you act stupid then yes you deserve to get wiped out. But still all the bonuses apply to the defender and not the attacker.

Lets take your example. Enemy rushes in, deals normal damage. You flank it geting bonus damage, exposing your own back. Now you have the option to either cover your own back with a different but weaker unit or attack with a second unit as well(possibly backstabbing as well). Either way you get the bonus to the defender.
OR
You cast haste/slow, backstab 3 times and regroup at the beginning of next turn essencially, meaning you are where you started out but probably already 1 enemy stack less. This would give a first level spell even more power than it h had in H3/5 and it was OP in both.

Dark-Whisperer said:

What do you mean archer cant backstab in melee? They can move as any other unit. I think its fair that creatures that can freely shoot you from a distance have penalty in melee, but that doesn't prevent them from moving away or moving around unit that is engaging them in melee.



The problem is not that it can not backstab in melee. Its the fact that it can not do it in ranged combat. It could gain a critical strike in certain circumstances(beats me how) but that is not a flanking mechanic.
Also if you really need your archers in melee to take down an enemy so much that you are willing to expose your back then you have already lost.
So no. Archers are excluded from flanking.


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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted October 05, 2014 01:58 PM

I just don't like the idea of a unit walking around its target while the target watches helpless. It makes no sense to me unless they are somehow distracted. Perhaps the easiest way to balance this would be if flanking bonus was applied applied only if the unit was already positioned adjacent to its target. That would be more challenging to pull off and require good timing. Otherwise we end up in a messy battlefield where one unit outflanks another, something that will undoubtedly happen with high mobility factions.
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Steyn
Steyn


Supreme Hero
posted October 05, 2014 02:02 PM

Why wouldn't archers be able to flank?
If you shoot at a formation from the from it is well protected by its shields. When shooting from the flanks or the sides these shields are far less effective, so the archer does more damage.

If you have played heroes online, then you would know that flanking with archers works perfectly fine (although it is more difficult to target the flanks with archers).
Elvin said:
Otherwise we end up in a messy battlefield where one unit outflanks another, something that will undoubtedly happen with high mobility factions.

Isn't that one of the main uses of high mobility troops, attacking the enemy in the flanks?
RMZ1989 said:

The only thing that I would remove from Heroes online flanking system, is being able to flank a unit that is on defense.


+1

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fuChris
fuChris


Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
posted October 05, 2014 02:14 PM
Edited by fuChris at 14:14, 05 Oct 2014.

Steyn said:
Why wouldn't archers be able to flank?
If you shoot at a formation from the from it is well protected by its shields. When shooting from the flanks or the sides these shields are far less effective, so the archer does more damage.

If you have played heroes online, then you would know that flanking with archers works perfectly fine (although it is more difficult to target the flanks with archers).
Elvin said:
Otherwise we end up in a messy battlefield where one unit outflanks another, something that will undoubtedly happen with high mobility factions.

Isn't that one of the main uses of high mobility troops, attacking the enemy in the flanks?



90% of all units don't have shields so there is no way to lose any defense by simply being hit in the sides or the back.
And yes flanking with archers is either problematic or too easy. Enemy unit turns a bit to manouver the obstacles, it shows its flanks only slightly to the enemy and is instantly more vulnerable to attack. Its stupid.

Also. You are not restricted to high mobility units for backstabbing. Even the slowest of all units has atleast 3-4 movement and that is more than enough to flank your attacker.
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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted October 05, 2014 02:48 PM

I can see even minor battles taking ages to finish.

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Sandro400
Sandro400


Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
posted October 05, 2014 02:58 PM

In HO units on defence are reducing enemy movement points. I hope similar thing will be in H7.
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Protolisk
Protolisk


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 05, 2014 05:01 PM

What I'd like to see are units being able to react. Oh, an enemy is walking around me? Let me just turn to face them, easy peasy.

Darn, I'm already in battle with this Justicar to the front of me. I hope no Swordmasters rush me from behind while I'm dealing with this... (if the target unit is already adjacent to an enemy, it cannot turn to face a second attacker)

Did I just get entangled/blinded/whatevered? Crap, I don't know where I'm going/I can't move anywhere. I hope no one comes attacking me in my time of need... (if a unit would be unable to move, then it doesn't get the chance to rotate, as that is movement)

Where did that Assassin come from? How did he get behind me? What do you mean he was invisible? (can't defend from what you can't see.)

Those Harpies came from nowhere! They struck and fled before we had the chance to regroup! They caught us with our pants down! (Enemies with strike and return + no enemy retaliation should be "fast" enough to flank a unit by themselves.)

If just a single unit with no ability can pull off flanking, that's a bad mechanic. If you can flank using a unit and another unit/ability, then it should be fine. Just one Sentinel shouldn't be able to flank, but a Sentinel and a good use of the blind spell should be able to pull it off. Or the unit should have a essential ability that allows it to flank on its own, such as invisibility or whatever.

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RMZ1989
RMZ1989


Supreme Hero
posted October 05, 2014 07:56 PM

fuChris said:

If you act stupid then yes you deserve to get wiped out. But still all the bonuses apply to the defender and not the attacker.

Lets take your example. Enemy rushes in, deals normal damage. You flank it geting bonus damage, exposing your own back. Now you have the option to either cover your own back with a different but weaker unit or attack with a second unit as well(possibly backstabbing as well). Either way you get the bonus to the defender.
OR
You cast haste/slow, backstab 3 times and regroup at the beginning of next turn essencially, meaning you are where you started out but probably already 1 enemy stack less. This would give a first level spell even more power than it h had in H3/5 and it was OP in both.


So, being able to attack first isn't an advantage? And I don't see problem here really. That is exactly my point, If you just attack with unit and then get flanked, IT IS YOUR FAULT YOU ARE GETTING FLANKED. If you move carefully and protect your units it shouldn't be easy to just flank units every time.

You can't just charge in with your mighty Black Dragons not giving a snow what will happen with them, you have to protect them now. In Heroes 5, big archers like Centaurs, Liches, Titans etc. are almost always blocked in first turn with fast units that you can't kill fast enough while their range units are wreaking havoc upon yours. So he got the advantage by being able to play first and being able to charge in. I don't see the reason why there wouldn't be a way to punish that.

As someone else said, I don't see the reason why Archers shouldn't be able to flank. Yes, units doesn't have shield, but they can evade some of the ranged attacks when they see them, and chances are a lot lower when you are shooting them in the back.

People here are also missing the point with how strong the flanking will be. I don't know that, sure, but if it is proven to be too strong, you can make it 5-10% more damage from the sides, and 10-15% from the back. It doesn't have to be huge advantage, but something that makes battle a bit more tactical.


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LucPatenaude
LucPatenaude


Famous Hero
Owning all 7 Heroes games
posted October 05, 2014 08:54 PM

It always depends on the players in multiplayer that are challenging themselves.

Avirosb said:
I can see even minor battles taking ages to finish.


If both players of an online connected match have decided to avoid attacks that involves non realistic situations during an encounter via the battle scene, that is totally up to them to mutually decide the rules of that specific game.

To literally be stuck a checkers situation and, acting like strategy maniacs, is literally insane. Champions of the world tournaments of Chess always do this complex way of playing, for some crazy reason. No wonder that these players have to be set on a time frame like deadline to end the match. Otherwise, the game could go on for years and, even, decades.

Besides, the term minor battle could mean anything in Might and Magic Heroes' games. From one singe soldier to three units on each side that has less numbers than 200 of them added throughout all the units together.

I think that I've pointed out all of what you meant about the possibility of longitivity of a single battle scene.


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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 05, 2014 09:17 PM
Edited by Stevie at 21:17, 05 Oct 2014.

I agree with Protolisk. The mechanic being accessible for all units feels cheap and unrealistic. There should be something else determining flanking/backstab situations. And countermeasures could also be implemented, for example units with "Defend" can turn in the way of the attacker to avoid backstab.

I don't think this mechanic will be that important. If it ends up being bad, it'll be an annoyance but not game wrecking.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted October 05, 2014 10:57 PM

Sandro400 said:

No, in HO it's much more complicated (just one word - hexes), though I think in H7 there'll be a simplified version.

Care to elaborate ?

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Sandro400
Sandro400


Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
posted October 05, 2014 11:18 PM

Galaad said:
Care to elaborate ?


Ofc.
How flanking and backstab works in HO.
First of all, we have hexes. That means that nearly half of units simply can't outflank their enemy right away (with hexes you need extra movement points for actually hit flank or back).
Then we have defence mechanic. When unit is on defence, it reduces enemy movement drastically. That actually works in two ways - backstab becomes nearly impossible + you can save your shooters this way.
Flyers ignore those rules, they can backstab you anytime. But flyers are a rarity anyway.
Also, in HO you can move your unit and press "defend". Thus, you can send your troop to hold vital position without "sacrificing" it. And some creature abilities engouraged you to do so. In Heroes, you either move or defend.
And last but not least, Heroes (I mean characters) have skills/spells affecting that mechanic.

And just because in Heroes we have squares, this system will be simplified. Maybe still working, but simplified imo.
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Steyn
Steyn


Supreme Hero
posted October 06, 2014 09:11 AM

I would suggest people to try HO to see for themselves how flanking works before formulating an opinion on the mechanics of flanking.

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fuChris
fuChris


Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
posted October 06, 2014 09:28 AM
Edited by fuChris at 09:29, 06 Oct 2014.

I saw some videos and no thanks. With hexes there are 3 places from where you can be backstabbed. For squares on the other hand there is atleast 1 place to be backstabbed with 4 other to be flanked from.
Simply put it is too easy to misuse this mechanic.

That aside if flanking only means something like 5-15% extra damage than no thanks, not worth changing my formation for that...

IRL if you get flanked while being engaged with another enemy you get slaughtered. 25-50% bonus atleast.
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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted October 06, 2014 09:36 AM

There are things I'm cool with being in any other game than Heroes, like weather mechanics and terraforming.
Flanking is one of them.

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Sandro400
Sandro400


Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
posted October 06, 2014 10:18 AM

fuChris said:
I saw some videos and no thanks. With hexes there are 3 places from where you can be backstabbed.


Woah woah. Give me a link please. I played that game and never discovered such a cheating possibility. There's only one hex to backstab and 2 for flanking (maybe, just maybe, there's more with giant bosses, but I'm not sure).
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fuChris
fuChris


Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
posted October 06, 2014 10:23 AM

OK then.. 3 places to use the flanking mechanic from.
Better?
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Avonu
Avonu


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
posted October 06, 2014 10:26 AM

With squares you have 5 to 8 (2x2 creatures)  places from which you can flanked unit.
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