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Heroes Community > Tavern of the Rising Sun > Thread: Batman
Thread: Batman This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT»
Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted November 28, 2014 10:31 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 22:35, 28 Nov 2014.

Batman

Hey folks. Wanna talk about Batman?

Out of "American" superheroes, I consider Batman the only interesting one. Sure, it's still not devoid of sillyness and classical American cheese, but it's (IMHO of course) way better than the rest. The thing I like the most about it is that Batman is a human. Pretty extraordinary one, of course, but a human nonetheless. No mutations, no alien powers, just plain old stamina, wits and strength. In addition, he has a pretty decent background story and his motifs feel way more natural than many of the "superheroes" which just randomly got mutated and started saving the world (bleh).

I also like the fact that as time went by, the makers of Batman comics and movies tried to move away from the "knight in a shining armor" concept and make Batman more of a proper vigilante: misunderstood, feared, even hated, hunted by the police. While Superman & Co remained glorified awesome lazor throwers. Meh.

Of course nothing's perfect: The thing that kinda ruins Batman to me is the ridiculous goofy idiot sidekick, Robin. I hate that guy with passion. It's like the Scrappy-Doo of Batman series to me - out of place, kiddy and just completely unnecessary. Ruins the immersion and is just... you know...



... The hell is he doing with his ward in one bed?

The unnecessary group of sidekicks includes "the oracle", batwoman and a lot more of guys nobody needs to have compelling Batman stories. The character's solitude actually was something that felt in place with the character and natural.

This makes me think of Nolan's first two movies, which I considered perfect in terms of my vision of Batman: No sidekicks, no fooling around, just plain old' Batman smashing faces of criminals. The third movie however was (IMHO) terrible - instead of watching Batman kick butt and chew bubble gum, we're served a pathetic, incompetent douchebag that gets his masked butt handed to him for 3/4 of the film. It was almost embarrassing to watch. Plus the inevitable sidekick cameo, like a crap icing on a cake.

So what do you think?


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kayna
kayna


Supreme Hero
posted November 28, 2014 11:06 PM

Batman makes good movies but that's it. The comics has a rather dark theme intended to make it serious, but... I think the problem with Batman and DC comics in general is that the villains doesn't even have super powers of any kind, they're all just like, angry with mental or physical problems.

Now here's the thing ; normal people usually doesn't read comic books for long. People with problems in real life sometimes turn to the imaginary worlds, comic books included. When that person reads some X men comics, they see those mutated, problematic people as the good guys, but when they read batman, they see them as evil people getting their ass kicked by batman. And that's where DC comics fails.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted November 28, 2014 11:42 PM

I was always kind of fascinated with the Batman universe without really digging it in detail. I guess it has to do with the old Batman movie (the one with Jack Nicholson as Joker) came out when I was 8 or 9 yo or so which made it the coolest thing in the world at that time. I've never really been into super hero comics in the form of comics, so haven't read any of the old batman comics. I like the 89 Batman movie pretty well and I think the first two Nolan movies were fantastic. I thought the third Nolan movie was actually pretty good also, it just didn't come close to the other two, which meant it inevitably felt like a disappointment - I think if it had been the first of the three, people might have been more positive towards it. Currently I'm watching the "Gotham" tv show, which I find fairly entertaining even if it isn't exactly top level TV production.


PS: That panel shown above has to be the gayest cartoon ever.
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JoonasTo
JoonasTo


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted November 28, 2014 11:51 PM
Edited by JoonasTo at 00:01, 29 Nov 2014.

Batman was born with a platinum spoon in his mouth. You should hate him by all accounts


Also, which batman are we talking about?

There's the awesome Batman Forever.
The other awesome Nolan Batman.
The hilarious(and damn great) 60s Batman.
Some more or less hilarious/awesome Batmans from between.

And the horrible mess that is the comic Batman.


PS. I'm pretty sure the whole Dick Grayson is just an eloquent allegory for his own, you know, dick. It makes it a whole lot more enjoyable too if you read it that way.
They needed to pull in more readers and had to appeal to a younger audience. Batman was too adult for the kids to empathise with so they had to create a little simple sidekick. That in all regards is like a little version of batman.
Have you noticed that he's always the first to notice/get distracted by the femme fatales too, hmmm?
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kayna
kayna


Supreme Hero
posted November 28, 2014 11:54 PM

alcibiades said:


PS: That panel shown above has to be the gayest cartoon ever.


Oh ho, someone hasn't seen the Ambiguously gay duo anime!

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted November 29, 2014 01:45 AM bonus applied by Elvin on 29 Nov 2014.
Edited by Galaad at 03:51, 29 Nov 2014.

How can one speak about Batman without mentioning the 90's animated series TV show, Batman TAS. I discovered it shortly after it aired, and felt in love with it. Be it for the old gangster atmosphere with its cars from the 20's or its dark screen, its deeply-thoughts characters and humanity in the villains, the grimness of the hero, its awesome music theme (Danny Elfman) and opening, the list is VERY long. I don't even know where to start for describing how incredibly good this series is to me. Well, I will start with the main protagonist, play-boy billionaire stupid Bruce Wayne. His alter-ego being a dark, grim, lonely, fearsome hero. Even though his first appearances in DC comics weren't reflecting much that, Bill Fingers in a general matter does not receives enough credit as a co-creator with Bob Kane -the latter being often only mentioned- as Bill designed the detective's appearance. Some latter comics really drawn him as really dark and hatred, ruthless but never evil enough to kill, which is one of his more important traits, as it is the factor -to him- that differentiates him from the villains. The Joker too many times provoked him on this matter. He even killed Jason Todd, the second Robin (the first Robin, Dick Grayson, having left Bruce for personal reasons, thereafter becoming Nightwing), after a decision made by the fans (this is how it happened), because of the sidekick's unpopularity. The scene, in the comic A death in the Family was rather violent as it showed the Joker beating Jason to death with a crowbar (scene that had been ported to the screens with the excellent Under the Red Hood animated movie (2010), supervised by Bruce Timm (one of Batman TAS creators). Indeed, Jason was supposed to be a more “manly” character (and imo rather succeeded in that task) but didn't got loved as much as the creators expected, too much hate against the former Robin to change a thing. There had been too many Robins afterwards.
Dick Grayson's backstory was not so bad though, with the mafia plot that has always been one big charm to the series. All characters have great backstories, and most have even several backstories. You have some numerous comics versions, the TAS version, the Tim Burton and Nolan versions, etcaetera etcaetera. Speaking of which, Tim Burton's movies still are the best ones to me. No actor filled better the role of the Joker than Jack Nicholson. Well, it is like Nicholson was made for the role, and I will tell you I find him better than Ledger's latter interpretation, my reason, simply put, because of the laugh, a primordial aspect of the character. So how good Ledger's interpretation was, it lacked this. While the best Joker's laugh on TV was arguably made by young Luke Skywalker (aka Mark Hamill), Nicholson really had the “Joker” side of the character, while Ledger was almost exclusively focused around the psychopath side. The Joke's on you. The second one, Batman Returns, is for me still the best film ever made about him. So much poetry regarding the abomination that is Oswald Chesterfield Cobblepot (aka the Penguin), and Michelle Pfeiffer just ruled as Catwoman. Overall, the Burton's movies managed to keep the eerie atmosphere that the series environment deserves and has imo lot of charm. I would rank the Burton attempt a close 9/10. I won't speak about the Schumacher ones, as I hate them even more than MMH6 I mean, seriously, a movie that starts with close camera on heroes boobs and asses in leather ? Says it all. Anyway, the Nolan trilogy, is not as good as it is rated, but is still good per se. Batman Begins, while completely reinventing original plot (Bruce didn't originally decided to use its particular persona because of some fear of the bats lol), has some merit. Such as introducing to the cinema the immortal demon Ras Al Ghul for instance, as it is a not so known antagonist because of too few appearances, and most interesting character. His hate towards humanity is justified because of how humanity overall political mentality as well as mistreatment of the planet is by itself quite evil. His daughter, Talia Al Ghul, even gave a child to Bruce Wayne (the fifth Robin) and Ra's wanted Bruce to rule with him. All the supernatural dimension brought to the character and the stories emanating from it extended even more the series (rejuvenating pit, egyptian myths etc). One of the few villains, along with Dr Hugo Strange and Bane who discovered the detective's true identity. About Bane, I have to speak back about the comics there. Even though, not all comics regarding Batman are good (some are even catastrophic, as well as other TV or anime adaptations that I won't bother to quote), some are really good, including the ones featuring Bane, breaking the Batmans back, and handicapping him for quite some time. Then some other heroes like Arazel or even Dick Grayson did put the black cape for some time. Other great stories happened there, but the comics timeline is so hard to follow. Nolan's attempt to revive this episode was not that failed, and even though I consider it the least good of this particular trilogy, I give a 6/10 rating to Nolan's full trilogy, which is quite good coming from me. The major downside is the environment, too modern to my liking and the Dark Knight's voice was ridiculous imo, I could compare Burton movies and TAS to H2-H3, and Nolan movies to H5 (according to my personal opinion and preference ofc)
The Mad Hatter too is a villain worth mentioning. Coming straight out from Lewis Carrol's universe, he didn't make that much appearances either. And unfortunately, Jim Carrey was awfully directed as the Sphynx (Dr E. Nigma) in Batman Forever, distorting this character to the eyes of the less knowledgeable ones.
One thing I really hate with the Batman series is when they start to mix it with other super-heroes (Justice League etc), Batman just doesn't fit there, of what use can he be to Superman or Flash, incoherency at its best. Though I must say I almost had an orgasm when The Dark Knight Returns animated movies (2012), inspired by Frank Miller's old comic (1986), featured the scene when Batman beats Superman in a fight, and puts him back in place about their differences.
Harley Queen is a great character too, and her background story, that was written through the graphic Novel Mad Love, is also extremely well-written (Paul Dini). A therapist that felt in love with her patient, the Joker. The psychology and how they get to think this or that, how their subconscious comes into play etc, of almost all Batman characters is incredibly deep, and is another important trait of why I love Batman so much. Even Bruce's butler has an important role, as a somehow missing father, though Nolan did put too much emphasis on that aspect and gained another bad point from me.
I will end this post by recommending the 1993 animated movie Batman, Mask of the Phantasm, as it retraces a young Bruce Wayne and has an accent on the mafia background, which I really like and was always there. The Joker is at his best too
Overall, in my opinion throughout all of Batman's history I would say its golden age is roughly between the late eighties and the early 2000s, even though there was some bad writing within this period, and some very good ones at some other times, but there has been so much about Batman that it is hard to keep track of everything, just as a prelude to say how rich Batman is.
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friendofgunnar
friendofgunnar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
able to speed up time
posted November 29, 2014 07:44 AM

agree with OP 100%

For much the same reasons Daredevil was my favorite comic book character.  In many ways he's kind of the Marvel version of Batman.

Oddly enough though...
One of my other favorite characters is Dr. Strange.  It's hard to explain why, I'm not even sure why.  I think that it's because he wasn't just gifted with powers like most superheroes, he earned it through the rigorous study of the arcane arts. That kind of lines up with the Batman thesis as well.

One strange thing about Batman though is that he doesn't carry a gun.  As Cracked.com pointed out, he's got a batmobile, a batcycle, and a batcopter with guns, but apparently he's too good to carry a gun on his own person.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted November 29, 2014 12:39 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 12:40, 29 Nov 2014.

The whole "Justice League" thing always seemed like a crock of **** to me. Batman should be in his own universe - because those flying aliens and mutated superbugs really do take away his epicness. I mean, he feels so much less badass if you picture he shares the world with a guy that bench presses a planet

Oh yeah, my favorite villain is Ledger's Joker.
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted November 29, 2014 02:14 PM

Quote:
Oh yeah, my favorite villain is Ledger's Joker.
The only good thing Batman ever did was to give a reason to Jack Nicholson and Heath Ledger to play the Joker.  



... otherwise, nothing special, except maybe dark-ish Gothic Gotham (heh) atmosphere of the pre-Nolan time. And yeah, still better than the other comic crap.

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JoonasTo
JoonasTo


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted November 29, 2014 02:50 PM

It also gave us Birds of Prey. Awesome series.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted November 29, 2014 03:57 PM

Well, how can one forget this:
Gentlemen, let's broaden our minds.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted November 30, 2014 08:58 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 20:59, 30 Nov 2014.

Zenofex said:
... otherwise, nothing special, except maybe dark-ish Gothic Gotham (heh) atmosphere of the pre-Nolan time. And yeah, still better than the other comic crap.


Gotta admit, the comics are mostly total crap. But since they gave birth to Burton and Nolan's Batman movies... they deserve some slack

And yes, the animated series was a rather good one. I wanted to kill them for introducing that Robin douchebag, however. I mean, why couldn't they just pretend he was never there...
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted November 30, 2014 09:25 PM

Burton movies sucked except the first one. I was into the Marvel Universe as a kid, not much DC stuff published here except Superman and he is really lame. There are many not-so-super heroes in the Marvel Universe like the Punisher, Iron Man ( he's rich and technology based much like Bruce Wayne), Hawkeye, Nick Fury... I dont think Daredevil counts as one though cause he has super senses in everything except sight, he can even differentiate between people's heartbeats and recognize them by that.

As a kid I liked how all of them were in the same universe and had adventures together or fights against each other because of hypnosis or misunderstandings. It still holds a little nostalgia value and popcorn time but seriously, after the age of 15-16 tops, it will inevitebaly cease to be truly interesting. Dont waste too much time on comics or mangas people, there is the world of real literature out there, even if we skip aside giants like Kafka or Dostoyevski, relatively lighter stuff like Paul Auster or Zaddie Smith or whoever your local writers are, they will be so much more interesting and dimensional than any comic can ever be. I mean, they are written for grown ups.
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Geny
Geny


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's backside
posted November 30, 2014 09:48 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c
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friendofgunnar
friendofgunnar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
able to speed up time
posted December 01, 2014 02:24 AM

speaking of Batman being in his own universe, how the **** can anybody take "Superman vs. Batman" seriously?  Is anybody actually interested in watching this? Who's the audience?

On a related topic, I suspect the entire genre of comic-book movies is going to be ending soon.  There's very little that's left to be said.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted December 01, 2014 03:22 AM

I also vaguely remember from my childhood a DC/Marvel special issue of Superman/Spiderman, they fought each other first and then they joined forces to fight Lex Luther and Doctor Octopuss. Spidey fighting Superman is also out of proportion for sure but I guess some fans keep demanding such things and it just becomes a matter of profit.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Alone in the Forest
posted December 01, 2014 08:26 AM

Batman vs superman makes sense given the contrast of morals and green cryptonite. Still, it's cheesy.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted December 03, 2014 06:15 PM

friendofgunnar said:
speaking of Batman being in his own universe, how the **** can anybody take "Superman vs. Batman" seriously?  Is anybody actually interested in watching this? Who's the audience?


I used to draw Batman vs. Superman comics as a kid. In general, Batman would beat the **** out of Superman in every of them
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kayna
kayna


Supreme Hero
posted December 03, 2014 07:15 PM

Well comic books aren't exactly a single man's work. It's worse than shared work, it's like 100 writers that wrote a little part each and it's all glued up together... It's a mess. And in those writers, there's always one once in a while that's gonna pop in unchecked with his mental power trip and make ridiculously powerful characters. Marvel comics had that problem more often than DC comics.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted November 02, 2016 03:20 AM
Edited by Galaad at 03:27, 02 Nov 2016.

Just saw the Killing Joke, good, but the first half-an hour is bad fanfic, the movie actually starts at 28mns or so.

For the good points: Kevin Conroy, Mark Hamill, atmosphere faithful to the comic for the most part.

Bad points: I won't give away spoilers but the first half hour of the movie doesn't make any sense, has nothing to do whatsoever with the comic, simply doesn't belong here. The director simply wanted to shoehorn some of his own, he shouldn't have.

I'd give it a 7/10, the task was challenging and, ruling out the first half, pretty well done.
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