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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Pre-guide to Heroes VIII
Thread: Pre-guide to Heroes VIII
EnergyZ
EnergyZ


Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
posted May 01, 2015 12:31 PM
Edited by EnergyZ at 12:38, 01 May 2015.

Pre-guide to Heroes VIII

Since I can (personally) see H7 as a fiasco already, it is time that I share my views on what should be improved (rather than degraded). Since Ubi is focusing on making new fans, I will also make some points about it. Deal is, they should add new features and revise them, rather than removing them, as they said on the Shadow Council site. There is always room for improvement, yet keeping the very heart of the franchise safe.

All right, here goes nothing.

Pre-development phase

I have not seen previous developments, but Shadow Council is by far worse sites I have seen. Blocking was initiated just several months after the site started, you can't search for comment you wanted and no new forums, just a link to their official ones. The achievements are somewhat nice, even if they are biased (for example, you get an achievement for voting for the winner, even if they are against your views).

*By far, it should be a place to leave feedback, whether positive or negative.
*Could use more moderation, as well as their own rules and laws (rather than uPlay's alone).
**In addition, moderation should work at all times, just hire more mods. We all have seen lawlessness at weekends, haven't we?
*Beta should absolutely be free. Don't let greed come in your way. Especially with "pre-orders".
*Have about ten fans come to your "lair" each two months, have them test the game a bit, see their feedback.
*Show the core of the game first thing in development, no waiting about later.
*If Heroes games are not enough for inspiration, you got the previous Might & Magic games for more content.

Towns
We see the townscreens are 2D. It would make sense if the entire game was 2D. Since it isn't, well, tough luck. Some also have seen some inconsistencies with, say, Stronghold: dwellings should be appropriate - meaning behemoths should have an exquisite, magnificent building/cave than just a gap in the wall. Also, they aren't military camps (or shouldn't be), for how else would people live there?
*It should make sense that town screens should be 3D, rather than 2D. Makes game more thrilling, but don't forget to create a basic navigation menu, since some complain how they can't access buildings.
**Also, the "camera walks through town", when going in town, should be done once per week, since it was annoying when you had to click to stop the animation every time you enter.
*The Governor system from H4 was good, but it was basic; it increased creatures per week. Maybe the governor system should be expanded, say increase of resources from Resource Silo/Marketplace, or additional reinforcements during the town siege. Open for discussions.
*Those town points from H5 sounded nice, it refreshed the town a bit.
*About the faction buildings from H6, they also were good, but were weak in their effects. Also, to keep the town unique, you could have the player choose between two-three buildings (but not both).
*H4's terrain change was interesting, but sounds too difficult to implement if the screens were 3D. Maybe the idea of weather should help (a Haven on icy terrain could have the snow weather, or snowy frames).
*Town conversion was bad in H6, felt too easy and you just had to do it to win the game (sake for extra troops). To balance, I guess you can have the player do it only once per month, with high resource costs. In addition, only certain faction towns can be chosen (Haven can choose from itself, Sylvan or Academy, but not from Inferno, Dungeon or Necropolis and can also choose Sanctuary, Stronghold or Fortress, for extra resources).
*Someone mentioned to have *actual* people in town. I don't see why not, gives an feeling the town is inhabited.

Creatures

It depends which creatures are good or badly designed. In general, H7 does not have many creature abilities (max. three, when in H4 it was max. 4). Also, some may scoff how they are always inspired from other media, like Warcraft or Game of Thrones (among other things).
*More creatures abilities is always beneficial, obviously.
**Though some are still missing, say Spellcaster (not just one, but several spells).
*About designs, it all depends on general look of the creature. If it looks too simple (like lacerator, a bunch of spikes), it isn't quite good. Neither is over-decoration (like too many spikes and gems, on H7 skeleton hoplite).
*Faction color is not good, either. A good example would be to have a player play as a red banner, yet all creatures are green-colored. That is to say, creatures should be colored in few colors (say, Sylvan - green, brown and yellow).
*That creature system from H6 is too simple, was never needed in the first place. Guess that is an excuse to balance creatures, have a common lich be (in general terms) as strong as vampire.
*I also have an idea of multi-factional units: say a dwarf that has studied magic from Academy, or a dark-elf that acquired demonic powers.
**In contrast, their abilities should be like that: a Warlock hero can "unlock" dark-elf creature powers, while Demoniac hero can unlock infernal powers. A knight, however, cannot "unlock" any of that creature's abilities.
***However, a Warlock that improves the creature as a specialization can unlock both abilities.
*Like said before, player could choose among which two-three buildings they can build, hence they can purchase between those two-three units.
*Alternative upgrades are cool and should be added as well. Or, as a different system, one could have double upgrades - a creature can be upgraded and have another upgrade to upgrade.
*How about adding Tier 8 or even Tier 9 system than usual Tier 7 system?
*Some creatures on the map could move. Sounds like an interesting objective for scenario: to kill a dragon that tries to kill you.
*Faction-related creatures are always nice. There always were, just not as obvious (except H4).
*None of H6 dwellings system. Is bad. Veeery bad.
*More new creatures. You have imagination, you make it.
*New faction, perhaps? Could be Forge, or something else, new, exciting.
*About war machines, one more should suffice, say trebuchet to push away enemy units.

Skills and spells

A complex system, where one can easily get lost when developing that. However, I could clarify as much as possible. Things were good before H6, when the non-random system without guilds was started.
*Since there are also some people arguing about random system, for their sake both systems can be added; when leveling up, you can choose between two skills (random), then pick a perk from the skill you have chosen (non-random).
*Add more effects to skills that aren't used often, like Scholar, Navigation or similar ones.
*Witch's Hut that gives skills away should be toggled like in WoG: you can choose to accept the skill or not.
*Maybe excluding the ultimate ability could help. Was nice, but sometimes not rewarding.
**Instead, you can have ultimate perk that improves by level.
*Skills and abilities should contemplate and improve each other, as well as having some ties (preferable to have some sense, like picking Tactics would also give away Defensive Stance/Offensive Stance).
*Faction skills are impressive, nice job on whoever thought of them.
*Having two very similar skills should grant you a promotion (like H4), say Attack and Bloodrage for Barbarian or Enlightment and Artificer for Wizard.
*Spells are good before. H7 feels good in obtaining them. But not how much you can learn. More spells, about 13, per school. If you lack the imagination, there is always the Might & Magic RPG-s to look through.
*Like H4, you can learn additional spells by combining schools. Though don't have them too overpowered.
*Some people complain how we have seven spell schools. It does sound problematic, but I would say because the game is too simple, not exciting enough. If it was very developed, with a lot of factions, then it would be wise to insert them, maybe even one more, say Divine magic.

Scenario/campaign

Scenarios are usually good, as well as campaigns. Still, for an unimaginable reason, H6 has few, and even those were taken straight from campaigns. Stories are also good (H4 was pinnacle, I must say).
*Scenarios should feel slightly diverse from each other, but have that special "something".
**Changing the objectives to acquiring resources, creatures or heroes from prisons should help.
*I feel the campaigns where characters transfer from one to other is indeed, beneficial. But don't forget to insert art, philosophy or other important features to keep it amusing.
*As a story, I suggest you can have campaign involving conflict between planes of Enroth (or at least its remains), Axeoth, Ashan, Xeen and Terra, which takes after the events of Dark Messiah. Creatures from other planes are summoned to defeat a threat of Ashan. You could have the planes at least mentioned if the idea is not in your interest.

Other

About other stuff, it is generally stuff that remains good, mostly. Though there is still some criticism in those parts.
*Heroes specializations should improve by level, not something like "bonus spiders in area of control".
**Also, about heroes themselves, one could have few classes' heads covered. But not ALL classes.
*New artifact slots can be inserted, say pants or gloves.
**Also, some also mentioned artifacts can be improved, like in H6's weapons. But none of that requirement to use uPlay to unlock new items.
*Don't forget other adventure objects from previous games, like mythical garden or idol of fortune. Small stuff, but good stuff.
*New resources are great idea. Maybe a new rare resource can help as well. Not saying the old ones are bad, but I think a "refreshment" is beneficial.
*What do you think of a new primary skill, besides Attack/Defense/Spell Power/Knowledge?
*Well, you could either make the random map generator or make more maps.
*Land and underground. How about a third level, like sky map, to explore?
*Don't place graphics on first place of priorities, we don't play it because we want to be amused by how it looks. It helps, but cannot be the sole factor to play the game.
*H4's potions can be used in a way to boost effects; it is to player's choice which potions can be drunk before battle (max. 4).

To conclude, Heroes franchise must adapt and evolve, with new ideas. Don't forget most of community are H3/H5 fans. Having new fans is good, but don't forget about old ones. In addition, do not forget Heroes are (originally) spin-off of Might & Magic series, which are fantasy and sci-fi genre. It is 20 (or 30, depends on the view)-old franchise, so one must treat it with respect. Have as much time to develop, for if you are forced (like NWC or even people like Erwan, as he claims it), it is likely game won't be high-quality. Heroes I was the core and others should be an improvement over it, like other games and franchises.

For anyone else that reads (or has read it), these are only proposals. To be the greatest one must be even beyond the best. You may think Ubi, or anyone else may not even want to read this. True and it may be foolish hope that wrote all this. But know that we have something to present the devs than just bicker to them all the time. Probably the reason Ubi ignores most of the fans and goes on their own.

All right, start discussing!

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Hermes
Hermes


Famous Hero
posted May 01, 2015 12:46 PM

No.

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Pawek_13
Pawek_13


Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
posted May 01, 2015 01:53 PM

Isn't it too early to do such things? I know that Heroes VII will be flawed but come on, this game wasn't even released, so its support will last for a few years. At that time many things can change. Besides, we know much about Heroes VII but we don't know everything, so some of your requests may even be fulfilled in the game itself.

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EnergyZ
EnergyZ


Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
posted May 01, 2015 02:32 PM

Well, I have given up my hopes that the game would be nearly perfect, since there are too many faults, caused either by lack of money or intentional. Even so, I prefer to have a fresh vanilla rather having to pay even more to fix and repair the game.

Besides, I doubt half of these ideas would be added. These are more ideas meant for new development. Ubi and Limbic have invested time in H7 (maybe less than should be). This is more meant as guidelines for devs in future to make a better Heroes game. Foolish, perhaps, but it is here.

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TD
TD


Promising
Famous Hero
posted May 01, 2015 03:25 PM
Edited by TD at 15:42, 01 May 2015.

Pre-development phase:
The visits to "lair" would cost good bit if it wasn't from fans close-by which could very well end up as not the best helpers. I think they could just read the beta feed-back, choose which was most helpful and/or found most critical problems and converse with them via video conference for example on how to handle/fix them. The same people could be given more content to try and find problems with that too.

As for moderation, I think they could appoint few SC members for the job. They could only delete posts that get flagged by x number of times so they can't go censoring posts they don't agree with(or they could "hide" comment and wait till real mod gets there to delete or release the comment. Maybe if several SC mods agree they could delete post also). It's not perfect fix, but much better than what we got now IMO and it wouldn't cost anything really. As for choosing the mods, either devs could pick them or/and SC members could vote if they will accept person as SC moderator.
Another thing would be to add bot that censors certain words at least. Of course I'd love to have real official mods on the site, but I just consider that too optimistic thinking(as is my suggestion to be honest for liability issues).

Towns:
I don't agree with the h5 town-levels to be honest. I would've expected more lenient version, not the opposite. It limits magic heroes the most I think, because you need very high town-level for mg lvl 4 for example. Stricts requirements just mean you will be building the town the same way pretty much always to optimize your route(already h5 had bit of this problem and I see it as really problematic if the system is made much more strict).

I would hope 3d as rest of the game is in 3d and frankly h5 towns are awesome. The graphical style should also fit rest of the game which it doesn't in h7. I can live with 2d as well, but I would expect towns to be very lively and detailed at the very least as counter-balance. Also the buildings and their placement should be logical

The faction-buildings didn't really feel balanced to me in h6. Some were way more useful than others so you really always went with building x. Same problem was really in h4 with creatures IMO. The idea itself is very nice though.

Governor system I actually welcome, I just hope things are added on top, not centered around it. I still hope walls give 0/50/100% boost to growth for example or something like half that(NOT THE H6 +1 CREATURE!!!). As for the governor itself I really wish it could level by having buildings done in his town, capturing mines, collecting resources/artifacts and maybe even give it ability that gives him little exp each turn. I hate the idea of basically being forced to fight and level up non-battle hero that will end up staying at town x. The governor/AoC abilities should also be in the same slot as it just takes extra levels to get boosts from all around the skill-tree.

Town-conversion I will miss personally. It was badly done in h6, but the idea behind it is solid. You could at least give partial conversion to build x number of your faction buildings or even complete one. Just make it cost time and ton of resources(+ I think you should actually build town from zero up or from some level 9 so it's not fully built once you convert).

As for terrain-change, it should absolutely be part of TS since they went with 2d. We have already seen awesome winter version of haven TS made by fans. To me the TS just scream the dev attitude of "nobody looks at the TS anyway" which translates to me that they didn't put a whole lot of effort into them in h7.

Creatures:
The creature-abilities I think will be one of the worst parts of the h7. It only feels like total excuse to say h3 didn't have that many abilities only to avoid work. This only gets reinforced in my mind by recycling the abilities around making the more and more generic. Piercing shot is used by what, 4-5 units? Sweep, 4-5 units? Vigilance 3 units? Undead is an ability, why isn't living one too then?(Undead is unit-type rather than ability IMO). The should be good diversity of abilities and the amount creatures have. For this h5 or h4 should be the reference.

There also aren't any chance based abilities truly in h7. In previous games you had stuff like stone-gaze, stuns, double attacks and so forth which were exciting to see if they got activated. Only ability that h7 has is basilisk gaze activated if you get lucky strike so even that isn't working the same way as chance-based abilities in the past which is a great shame IMO. More chance based abilities!

No spell-caster, only activated abilities like h6 is something that eats away immersion for me and is huge step backwards again in game mechanics.(But I suppose I should understand this since h6 didn't have this either...)

The designs in general are way too over the top in h7. They just keep adding spikes, gems armor and overall decorations if they find spot to put them. They think core unit should look like mighty warlord or general? Well I just don't share the vision, it feels like they target 10-15 -year-olds with the designs. Make armors look natural. Think if you were making armor or weapons for thousands how would you make them? They should be much more plain and basic looking without any extras. Heroes might have some decorated swords or something, but not the most basic core troops -.-

I hated the 3-tier system, not fan of the 5-tier system. Again something that felt to me that was done to avoid work it took balancing units. 7-tiers had great variability in and between factions. It also took a lot more understanding or the system to keep low-tiers viable late game.

Multi-factional units I'm not fan of. I wouldn't mind some mercenary camp where you can recruit certain units always, but in general I wish to keep factions as unique as possible.

Alternative upgrades are not priority for me. They were nice, but I would like to see more alternatives. As for the upgrade for upgrade, I would like to see that done with exp from battles. Or from chest you could get additional option to give it to specific creature-stack.

Tier 8&9 are something I would hope to see as neutrals(I have previously referred to them as mega-champions). These creatures shouldn't have dwellings to recruit them from. They could be quest rewards, but ultimately I would just want them for extra challenge and flavor as opponents on the map(and guarding most precious treasures).

Creatures moving, yes I would like to see that. Also give neutrals the patrolling option as in h4. Regarding this also make units with stealth like thief or bandit in h4(don't remember which it was called).

New faction, sure. Forge? Absolutely no!. I Would love to see some cutthroat mercenary faction, Ashan really needs some evil selfish faction to balance so many good-doers^^

H6-dwellings sucked on adventure map so those should've been gotten rid-off.

More warmachines? Sure... I just hope even the current ones will be useful in long-run. For me war-machines were the skill to avoid because it would be literally useless in long run.

Skills and spells:

I would rather have ultimate for factions as it was the culmination of faction special/racial and it was fun to strive for it. Ultimate perk sounds something very OP in long game, but maybe you could open it up a bit.

Overall the skill-tree of h7 needs pre-requisites/ties for challenge, racial abilities in different skills for variety(like luck of the barbarian in h5), rid of class-specific main-skills and freedom to all neutrals and might OR magic skills, but only get single GM every 10 levels. Also some abilities common only for few factions(like warlock's luck in h5). Also to get to GM Just require any 3 abilities and skill as master-level(or GM-level if there is such level). For clarification you won't have to take 1 novice/expert/master as you do now. For classes, have them only dictate which attributes are given at level-ups and how often. That's how they should make it like in h8(and hopefully fix it for h7)

"Two similar skills give promotion" Is this like h4 class-system? If so, absolutely yes!

There are too few spells per school, especially level 4 needs another or it's sure pick not really different from h6 essentially. Also combined spells/spell-schools I totally wanna see again.

Campaigns&other:

Well H6-campaigns sucked, all going for same goal and most characters were dead boring or annoying to me. And the scenarios were terrible(one was even bugged early on and you couldn't finish it at the time as I recall). H4 would be the game they should go for inspiration as far as campaigns are concerned IMO. Anyway, I'm more of custom/hotseat player so campaigns and scenarios are of much lesser importance.

Overall I agree about great deal of things with you. I just don't think devs agree with them. IMO they think if it's not from h6 it's not that great thing and even worse; it can't be copy/pasted directly.


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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted December 13, 2016 11:37 PM

Pawek_13 said:
I know that Heroes VII will be flawed but come on, this game wasn't even released, so its support will last for a few years.


Those years sure fly by fast.

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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted December 15, 2016 11:10 AM

Not bad, I agree with most of it. Only the idea about multifaction creatures seems a little too risky though if done correctly, it could be awesome.

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