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| Thread: Arcane Knowledge - what is this idiocy!? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted August 31, 2015 09:44 AM |
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They pretty much integrated the Wisdom skill from H3 into the various Magic skills this way. Bad fix to a problem if you ask me, because as people indicated, it means you can't learn level 4 spells with just one Magic skill.
The question is if we'd want to go back to a skill like Wisdom, being separate from Magic skills. Personally, I would be in favor of that, but that would mean yet another skill - or adding it to an already existing skill that's Magic oriented, but not a Magic school skill by itself.
My own suggestion would be to transform the Prime Magic skill: scrap the spells it carries and distribute the ones we want to keep among the various other schools. Let the Prime Magic skill influence the efficiency of all other Magic schools and therefore also be able to carry the Wisdom skill.
I don't feel that the Magic school skills should carry the means to learn higher tiers; its only function should be to improve or expand the effects of the spells of that school. Yes, that means that the Prime Magic skill is pretty much mandatory for Magic Heroes, just like Wisdom was mandatory for Magic Heroes in Heroes3. I can live with that. It also means that there's a trade-off to be considered (omg, no, a strategic choice in a Heroes game!), on whether you wish to expand the spell tiers you can learn or increase the effect of the tiers you already know of a Magic school you have.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 31, 2015 10:15 AM |
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Noooooooo ... please DON'T bring back the must-learn Wisdom skill. It's already a problem that we can't learn that many skills in a game, please don't force us into having to waste 3 - no, wait, with the new system that would be 5!! - skill points just to be able to learn high level spells.
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What will happen now?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 31, 2015 11:28 AM |
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Magic heroes face to many restrictions. I'd rather have a more intuitive magic system whose success is not tied to a multitude of skills.
Arkane knowledge is cumbersome and more of an artificial solution to a problem that should not exist but at the same time it attempts to smooth out the magic system outside of the skill system. The method is questionable but the idea is not bad. For instance.. What if mages had a separate magic system that allowed for further customization of their magic skills/spells? The skill system could have some general skill effects that increase spell effectiveness, casting costs, methods of casting, learning or sharing spells while the separate magic system could focus on the elements themselves and their unique abilities. It would allow a magic hero to specialize in his element(s) without being at the mercy of the skill system.
King's bounty uses magic runes to learn the magic skills and something like that would work fine here. The magic hero would get skill points for his skills(ie enlightenment, sorcery) and at the same time magic runes or whatever to develop his magical skills. The benefit of this setup is that the magic system can involve all magic skills, without in any way cluttering the skill system. There could be lovely passive abilities (like water shield or corrupted soil) or further upgrades to elemental status effects(deep freeze, sunder armour, vertigo), blessings(eternal light, darkness ward) or curses(dark renewal, seal of darkness). Perhaps specific spell types like individual boosts to water or ice-based spells (instead of just boosting all tier 1 or tier 2 spells of that element as is the current system). It could offer some freedom in picking your magic abilities and planning ahead regardless of the skill system randomness. It would help differentiate magic heroes from each other but also from might heroes whose spellcasting would be more crude.
Add a mage guild element specialization and you can also plan the spells you will get. Full control in your magic direction, still subject to spell randomness. Seems like a good compromise.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted August 31, 2015 11:38 AM |
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alcibiades said:
Noooooooo ... please DON'T bring back the must-learn Wisdom skill. It's already a problem that we can't learn that many skills in a game, please don't force us into having to waste 3 - no, wait, with the new system that would be 5!! - skill points just to be able to learn high level spells.
Hence my suggestion to integrate it into a skill that governs all magic schools. By no means did I mean to say that another, new skill should be added. You're not solely going to develop your specific elemental school anyway, you'll also increase other skills. What I'm suggesting is to add the Wisdom effect of higher tier spells to a generic Magic skill that is likely going to be developed by Magic Heroes anyway - and that way, you more or less force the player to make a strategic choice: do you increase the spell school in question, thereby raising the efficiency and/or effects of spells already known in that school? Or do you raise the generic Magic skill, which as a side effect enable you to gain access to the next higher tier spells?
Furthermore, it's (far?) less likely that Might Heroes would take too many Magic skills, so likely they can either cast high level spells but not nearly as efficient as Magic Heroes with the appropriate Magic schools, or they can cast spells efficiently, just not up to higher tiers, which they can't cast at all then.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 31, 2015 12:28 PM |
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Elvin defending this flawed make belief solution makes me think that he had a part in it as a VIP (just as he did with Hero availability in the Tavern). The ONLY way they should've done it is making level 2 spells available for a better mastery with an ability in the Paragon skills, and definitely NOT every singles spell available for unskilled mastery with the ridiculous prerequisites of obsolete mechanics.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted August 31, 2015 01:37 PM |
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Maurice said:
What I'm suggesting is to add the Wisdom effect of higher tier spells to a generic Magic skill that is likely going to be developed by Magic Heroes anyway - and that way, you more or less force the player to make a strategic choice: do you increase the spell school in question, thereby raising the efficiency and/or effects of spells already known in that school? Or do you raise the generic Magic skill, which as a side effect enable you to gain access to the next higher tier spells?
a magic hero will select at least two magic schools anyways. who goes for a magic hero and decides to specialize in only one magic school? come on.
so you raise the efficiency of your magic school AND gain "wisdom". I fail to see the problem (mind you I'm only a casual player).
Maurice said:
Furthermore, it's (far?) less likely that Might Heroes would take too many Magic skills, so likely they can either cast high level spells but not nearly as efficient as Magic Heroes with the appropriate Magic schools, or they can cast spells efficiently, just not up to higher tiers, which they can't cast at all then.
even if might heroes do select to specialize in two magic schools, and be able to learn all spells, their low magic attribute would make those spells weak and a waste of skill points. again where is the problem with arcane knowledge? (i must note that i'm speaking about arcane knowledge ONLY, completely disregarding the number of spells or magic schools or mage guilds or anything else)
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted August 31, 2015 02:49 PM |
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ChrisD1 said:
a magic hero will select at least two magic schools anyways. who goes for a magic hero and decides to specialize in only one magic school? come on.
so you raise the efficiency of your magic school AND gain "wisdom". I fail to see the problem (mind you I'm only a casual player).
If it were up to me, I'd restructure the entire skill setup as we have it now. I'm only a casual player too, by the way.
Maurice said:
even if might heroes do select to specialize in two magic schools, and be able to learn all spells, their low magic attribute would make those spells weak and a waste of skill points.
So basically you agree with me  . Might Heroes won't spend the skills necessary to fully flex out a few Magic skills.
Anyway, the way I see it, the Magic <school> skills only increase efficiency in spells pertaining to that school, not the tiers that you can learn - that requires a grasp of spell casting fundamentals that fall under the general Magic skill (which I dubbed Prime Magic, sans the spells that it currently has).
Higher tiers in Magic <school> doesn't suddenly teach you how to learn high(er) tier spells of other schools; why would my Hero be able to learn tier 4 Fire spells, when the Hero has mastery levels in Earth and Water Magic? That completely makes no sense to me. To me that sounds like if I can speak English and German fluently, I would also able to speak French reasonably well.
However, with a study of the fundamentals of languages in Europe throughout the ages, I could probably understand French well enough to read it and know what they're trying to tell me.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 31, 2015 03:41 PM |
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Stevie said:
Elvin defending this flawed make belief solution makes me think that he had a part in it as a VIP (just as he did with Hero availability in the Tavern).
Don't think too hard, you may blow a fuse 
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 31, 2015 04:35 PM |
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Elvin said:
Arkane knowledge is cumbersome and more of an artificial solution to a problem that should not exist but at the same time it attempts to smooth out the magic system outside of the skill system.
This is a classic case of treating the symptom instead of the illness that lies behind it. Going back from 7 to 4 magic schools would make the problem pretty much none-existant in the first place, and would have other widespread benefits on the skill system on top of it.
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What will happen now?
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted August 31, 2015 04:37 PM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 16:45, 31 Aug 2015.
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Maurice said:
Higher tiers in Magic <school> doesn't suddenly teach you how to learn high(er) tier spells of other schools; why would my Hero be able to learn tier 4 Fire spells, when the Hero has mastery levels in Earth and Water Magic? That completely makes no sense to me. To me that sounds like if I can speak English and German fluently, I would also able to speak French reasonably well.
However, with a study of the fundamentals of languages in Europe throughout the ages, I could probably understand French well enough to read it and know what they're trying to tell me.
That' s one way to see it. The other way is how will your hero learn a tier 3 fire/prime/air/dark spell when his pizza only has water and earth magic?
And yes now i see how 7 schools might be a problem but the solution is not that bad it's not game breaking or that awful.
I d put more energy to being bothered by the heroes' specials or the repetetive pizza slices in all hero classes.
Btw i can almost understand what an italian is talking about because i know some french
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted August 31, 2015 04:41 PM |
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alcibiades said:
Elvin said:
Arkane knowledge is cumbersome and more of an artificial solution to a problem that should not exist but at the same time it attempts to smooth out the magic system outside of the skill system.
This is a classic case of treating the symptom instead of the illness that lies behind it. Going back from 7 to 4 magic schools would make the problem pretty much none-existant in the first place, and would have other widespread benefits on the skill system on top of it.
I would be surprised if they implement it in Heores VII but miracles happen, so maybe...
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 31, 2015 04:43 PM |
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Pawek_13 said:
I would be surprised if they implement it in Heores VII but miracles happen, so maybe...
Of course they don't. I had, however, expected the game to be moddable, but even that seems not to be the case, which was probably the final nail in the coffin for me with regards to buying the game.
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What will happen now?
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malax83
Famous Hero
Game ranger, HotA Player
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posted August 31, 2015 05:34 PM |
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A new mechanics will totally ruin the game. I can add it to my none sense list (Flanking, OP racial => tons of abilities + imbalance between Factions, Diplomacy Skill, Arcane Knowledge...)
Does any of a member of this team (UBI + LIMBIC) play a board game strategy ?
This new rule is killing the kitten one more time !
Why ? Why ? Why ?
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