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| Thread: Heroes 7 - Ideas for the future |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted September 25, 2015 12:36 AM |
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Pawek_13 said:
First of all, I must apologise you, Maurice.
There's no need to apologize, but they're accepted nonetheless  . Also, thanks for the depth analysis, I had not made one myself that deep. The approach Stevie and I had was more intuitive, realising that Magic Heroes would achieve a greater Spell Penetration than Might Heroes, and therefore do ratio-wise more damage, the higher the Spell Penetration becomes. It's good to see that when writing out the figures, the base concept comes through.
As it is, exact numbers would have to follow through extensive playtesting. It shouldn't be overpowered nor underpowered compared to Might, while keeping in mind the early game, mid game and late game. Tricky, but I think doable.
Quote:
There's one more question I need to ask - which hero stat increases damage done by magical units - Spellpower or Attack? In the master post only physical damage is mentioned.
To be honest, I am in the dark about this one. Kiryu did make a convincing argument, which leads me to believe it's not required. Spell Penetration means they will deal more Magic damage than when they'd be controlled by a Might Hero already. Playtesting would have to reveal whether it's enough or not. It should not be on par with creature damage output of a Might Hero, since Magic Heroes throw in spells as well, more efficiently than Might Heroes ever can.
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Hunters11
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 25, 2015 03:00 AM |
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my guess
[url=http://postimage.org/] [/url]
[url=http://postimage.org/]post a picture[/url]
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Herry
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
100% Devil
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posted September 25, 2015 08:28 AM |
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Edited by Herry at 08:45, 25 Sep 2015.
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Stevie said:
Thanks for the contribution Herry. I have to admit that I didn't understood it all, [...]
Oh, sorry... Yes I didn't realize that  No trouble though, I'll edit the post to be more understandable and detailed. I should've done that yesterday when I'd seen your post, yes, but I had to go.
EDIT: It's done. If that's not enough, just tell me and I'll add pictures. After all, my idea in this thread is worthless if nobody gets it 
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 25, 2015 10:43 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 10:50, 25 Sep 2015.
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@Hunters11,
Yes, I really wish they'd emphasize choice with more creatures. This would be the perfect excuse to even bring fan favorites like the Unicorns back. However I'd like it if the choice was not exclusive, but that's a topic on its own.
Herry said:
In even more basic terms: Heroes of the same identity and race have the same AoE, Heroes of the same race but with different identites have fairly different AoEs, but Heroes with different race and identity have completely different AoEs.
That's quite similar to the class system of Heroes 7. Factions have preferred and hated skills, and classes also have their internal limitations. I do not agree with that way of doing things just because arbitrary restrictions limit variety and force you into a certain kind of gameplay, which was never in the spirit of Heroes. Free hero development like we had before with the pool of skills wide open for every hero is truly the way to go. Currently, without counting racials, every hero has a limitation of 9 out of 17 preset skills, which amounts for 53%, while there is no way you can get access to the rest. That is just terrible game design.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Herry
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
100% Devil
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posted September 25, 2015 10:57 AM |
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Well with that system you can get the rest, just that they cost a bit and you can't level them to the brink(by quite practical I mean a bit before the Master(or grandmaster? Meh, I'll just call it expert) level. Even though strategically, free development helps a lot. Like the other time I levelled tarnum to like 26, with some bull**** farming. Not even in the masters of the elements part, but he has expert fire, earth and water magic, along with mysticism. I can one-shot just about everything if I had implosion(which I didn't, so I used my legendary 1200 damage lightning bolt). I don't want to get off-topic, but if you want to do that, just makes sure you do everything to increase the main stats, and get the Angelic Alliance.
Anyways, as I was saying, it does make sense, but in a more freestyle way. Nothing is restricted to anything, except fully mastering skills, which is restricted to skills inside AoEs. Also, with the familiarity levels, which make it easier and cost less to learn other skills, it's not a real problem. This is kind of like a balance between modern/old systems, with some twists. I also decided to go back on the "limiting the number of skills to be learned outside AoEs", because it didn't make much sense  .
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ThatRedSarah
Famous Hero
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 25, 2015 05:31 PM |
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Hi!
Cool thread Stevie  I dont really have anything new to add to the whole magic topic, but it seems interesting and i like it.
But i have another game mechanics related concept:
Rushing:
If a creature moves more than half of its full movement nothing special happens. This represents the unit moving quickly and recklessly and not being too aware of its surroundings
Interception:
If a creature moves half or less of its full movement the player gets to choose whether the creature receives "interception" buff. This represents the unit moving slowly and carefully and being aware of its surroundings. With this buff they can intercept enemy creatures trying to move past them or in to an adjacent tile without doing anything. If they are attacked it doesnt work and the buff disappears. This interception results in an attack (maybe with decreased damage?) and stopping of the enemy creatures movement. After the buff triggers it will disappear, so it works only once like retaliation.
Guard or defend:
When deciding to defend the player can choose between the basic defend (defends itself) or guarding. When guarding, the player selects a guarding are for the creature (maybe like 2x5 vertical area in contact with the creature). The creature stays put until enemy unit moves within the area. In this case the enemy stops and receives an attack from the guardian (guard moves next to the enemy). This uses up the guarding buff. The buff also disappears when the creatures turn comes again in the initiative bar.
Reasoning:
These buffs and mechanics would be a nice addition to the battles in my opinion. Of course there needs to be a lot of testing and tweaking/balancing of the "values", but i think there is a good concept somewhere buried in to all this  With these mechanics you could effectively prevent units from snaking through your lines to hit your shooters and all that madness. This could provide an actually working "front line" and add up some really nice tactical options to the battlefield. The creatures positions on the field would matter more and it would nice. Of course there would be some special rules for flyers and such, but that is just details... This mechanic would also enable the use of bigger battle maps due to things getting crowded too easily 
Abilities and spells:
This would also open up a whole new area for abilities and spells. Spells that remove buffs would work so you could mess around with them and all that. Here are listed some examples for new abilities:
*can intercept also when rushing
*immune to enemy interception / guarding
*unlimited interception / guarding attacks
*unable to intercept / guard
*larger guarding area
and so on...
What do you think of this idea?
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted September 25, 2015 07:07 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 19:08, 25 Sep 2015.
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ThatRedSarah said:
What do you think of this idea?
I like the idea, but one thing worries me a little about it and that's that the guarding stack moves to intercept. I am not sure if you as a player want to have your units move automatically, because your units may end up in spots that you don't want them in and potentially leave your battle lines open, exposing the very units you're trying to protect.
How about the following suggestion?
- A unit that moves half or less of its allowed movement and then "Defends" enters Defense mode. A unit in Defense mode gains a small boost in (Might) Defense and cannot be flanked by the first attack made against this unit during the next enemy turn;
- A unit that doesn't move or attack during its turn, but "Defends" enters Guard mode. A unit in Guard mode has all the benefits of Defense as indicated above, but on top of that gets one free Attack of Opportunity against enemy units that are adjacent to them (regardless of if they arrived there during the enemy turn or started there), when they move to another tile during the enemy turn. This is a free attack, independent of a retaliation against a stack that attacks them;
This allows, as you said, the introduction of special abilities, like "Guard Breaker", which as the name implies, breaks the Guard buff. I could see this for units that can make a charge, for instance.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 25, 2015 07:30 PM |
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I do not see why movement should be considered an action that ends the creature's turn to begin with. You should be able to move, then wait or defend or shoot or cast. And I agree with Maurice said in regards to the Defend command giving you flanking immunity and also interception. Also, this system would be much more suitable within a hexed system where sizes are 1x1 because contingency probability is at its highest.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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ThatRedSarah
Famous Hero
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 25, 2015 08:01 PM |
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Yes good points Maurice and Stevie!
With half movement you could still wait, defend, shoot or cast. that would be nice. Maybe the shooting/casting could be executed with some negative effects if there has been movement during the same turn. This would distinguish the two cases as in "well aimed" and "quick aim"
Defending after moving should give you flanking immunity for the first attack and the interception buffs.
Defending when no movement has been done at all should give the buffs as above, but i would like it to get the option to guard an are too. You were concerned about your unit moving in to a unfavorable position due to the guarding move-to-attack, but i think this is just something you need to be aware of when placing the guarded area. If you are already in a good position then there is no use to apply the guarding area buff. Considering that you can only apply the area only into an adjacent tile and the area being a vertical 2x5, so the movement will be mainly up and down, i dont think that will lure you into too much trouble if you are willing to use the buff in the first place (you have something more valuable to protect).
Or we could just implement a choice that triggers as the enemy enters the guarding are. The choice would let you either stay put or move to attack. We could even go as far as letting the player control the guardians movement-attack so that it will be in the position of the players choice rather than AI's decision.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 25, 2015 08:12 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 20:14, 25 Sep 2015.
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I think you could have a Vanguard type of categorization for some units like Sentinels or Guardians, just like spellcasters and shooters are, under which specific interception / guarding mechanics could work. It's better to delimit between what you want to implement as a global mechanic and as a specific mechanic for a limited pool of creatures. Because I would say that, in general, mixing too many abilities under a global mechanic is not the good thing to do if you want to give some creatures a more unique feel in regards to their vanguard capabilities. Just my 2 cents.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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ThatRedSarah
Famous Hero
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 25, 2015 08:51 PM |
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Hmmm.. Yeah making it a global mechanic might be too much. Limiting it to certain creatures with the "Vanguard" ability might be a better solution
I'm glad you both liked the core concept of it thou
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 26, 2015 07:21 PM |
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H6 and H7 already use elemental damage for units so not sure what you are expecting Composite damage makes sense in H6 but it is far less important in H7 so it's a matter of game mechanics. But I am against spellpower boosting magical unit damage because that has traditionally been a might hero property. H6 blurred the lines and while the idea was interesting, in the end I have decided I do not like it. That is not to say composite damage could not improve the game but it would likely not change much under H7 so it's more of an afterthought.
Knowledge increasing magic resistance doesn't make much sense imo. Resistance is mostly useful under a might hero that lacks knowledge so..
Magic penetration depends on how prominent magic resistance is in the game. Might be essential, might be pointless.
Atm H7 does not have many variables that affect spellcasting so this is probably what you were thinking. The above are not necessary to achieve that, what you need is more interaction between spells of a different element but also between spells and battlefield locations.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted September 26, 2015 10:50 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 22:51, 26 Sep 2015.
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Elvin said:
But I am against spellpower boosting magical unit damage because that has traditionally been a might hero property.
The proposal doesn't say anything about Spell Power directly increasing unit damage - in fact, it says the opposite. Just adding Spell Penetration is enough.
Quote:
Knowledge increasing magic resistance doesn't make much sense imo. Resistance is mostly useful under a might hero that lacks knowledge so..
You're missing the bigger picture though, so let me elaborate.
Traditionally, there are three different Class encounters that you can consider:
Might vs. Might
Might vs. Magic
Magic vs. Magic
In the way the game is setup currently, without composite damage and all, creature damage is pretty much only affected by Attack and Defense. With the natural attribute boost as Heroes level up, Might Heroes gain far more Attack and Defense than Magic Heroes (and rightfully so) - so where does that leave us in the above three encounters?
Might vs. Might: pretty much unaffected, both sides gained roughly the same amount of Attack and Defense. What one side gained in one attribute is off-set against the gain of the other side in the opposing attribute.
Magic vs. Magic: pretty much unaffected as well, with the notion that increases in Attack and Defense on both sides are by all means a lot lower than with Might Heroes.
Might vs. Magic: Powerplay, especially late(r) game, since Might Heroes bring so much more to the units under their command than Magic Heroes. It's the reason why for instance in Heroes3, Magic Heroes are poor choices. Spell damage just doesn't scale so well and quite frankly, it never really has.
So as Stevie and I were brainstorming, we realised that if we could somehow also give a boost to creatures under command of a Magic Hero, things could be equalized. So we came up with the concept of Resistance (actually, this was the seed that started it all) as well as Spell Penetration. By boosting Spell Penetration with Mastery Levels as well as Spell Power and giving creatures across all factions composite damage (either by default, through Artifacts, a Magic School Perk or a buff), of which the magical component benefits from Spell Penetration, you're bringing up creature damage output on the magical side of the damage spectrum - bringing it towards the Might damage output of creatures under a Might Hero.
This means the Might vs. Magic scenario sketched above will change: Magic Heroes will still suffer a lot of unmitigated Might damage since their Defense is low, but they will now do a lot of damage to enemy creatures as well. Might Heroes will no longer roflstomp Magic Heroes just like that. Even if it's a bloodbath, it's no longer a one-sided one.
Magic vs. Magic would turn into very fast battles, though, so the concept of Resistance was needed more than ever, to protect troops against Magic damage - just like Might vs. Might has some form of protection due to increased Defense. By using Knowledge to raise Resistance, you can bring Magic vs. Magic battles up to par with Might vs. Might battles if you consider the casualty rates in either battle. Artifacts and a specific Resistance skill can be introduced to boost this aspect, too. Just like Magic Heroes can pick up Defense to protect against Might damage, Might Heroes can pick up the Resistance skill to protect against Magic damage.
As Pawek detailed, since Spell Penetration depends on Spell Power, Spell damage from Magic Heroes themselves will ramp up faster than for Might Heroes, who traditionally have lower Spell Power. As such, it's likely that Magic Heroes will deal more damage by themselves than Might Heroes can. This needs to be considered when balancing the various damage components with one another, making the overall boost to damage output through the Magic components of composite creature damage of creatures under a Magic Hero less than the boost to Might damage from a Might Hero.
But in truth, that imbalance has more to do with how passive Might Heroes have traditionally been in the past Heroes game than with Magic Heroes and their spellcasting. I've already detailed once before that I would rather completely revise the Might Hero's influence on the battlefield and buildup, through Battle Tactics skills, but that's for another discussion.
Quote:
Magic penetration depends on how prominent magic resistance is in the game. Might be essential, might be pointless.
Since we've been including this aspect, as well and they go hand-in-hand in our concept, I'd say: yes, essential.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 26, 2015 11:32 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 00:23, 27 Sep 2015.
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Let alone that the implementation of attack sources, resistance and penetration would emphasize choice at the level of army composition. Since the decision factor really caught on and people want more town creatures dwellings to choose from, you have an immense incentive for going well over 10+ alternative creatures and upgrades which would be an immediately warranted design decision.
Just picture this scenario: You have a Necropolis town with a pool of 5 core undead from which you have to choose. The Skeletons are tankier physical damage dealers, the Ghosts deal composite prime / dark damage, the Spiders deal composite physical / earth damage, Ghouls are frail physical damage dealers with more mobility, the Mummy gives composite physical / dark damage.
Let's say you can pick only 3 of them, and you get scenarios:
- Sylvan's highly resistant to earth, so the Spiders fall first as viable choice; then you'd rather remove the slower physical damage dealer because you prefer to be more mobile, so the Skeleton is out too. And you have Ghosts that deal excellent composite magic damage versus Sylvan, Mummies that have composite physical and magical dark so it works fairly well, and you'll have to settle for the Ghouls that deal full physical which is acceptable, and they're more mobile!
OR
- Haven is your magical nemesis because of Light, as your undead creatures are in the nagative when it comes to resisting Light. You're afraid that Haven will try to hard counter you on Dark, so you ponder if excluding Ghosts and Mummies as possible candidates would be wise. But then the thought occurs to you that Haven is pretty defensively oriented and you'd rather not take your chances with an army of mostly physical damagers. So you settle for two partial magic damage dealers in the form of the Ghosts and Spiders because of their prime and earth sources, and also for the tankier physical damager dealers, the Skeletons.
Now, factor in upgrades, skills and abilities, artifacts, penetration / resistance mindgames, and you have WAY more unpredictable and fun gameplay!
Seriously, this system is a win-win situation, and arguments out of Ubi's potential inability to implement it don't dissuade me at all. I really don't get the reluctance / opposition. There's no major downfall or anything of the kind, and I can hardly think of anything else spicing up gamepaly as easily, efficiently and intuitively as this.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted September 26, 2015 11:42 PM |
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Since the problem is (and always was) that magic heroes simply aren't as viable in longer games since might heroes can scale with their army, wouldn't the answer be to allow Magic heroes do the same? like, increase spell power with army size for example? there was a warcry in H5 that did that.
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted September 27, 2015 12:08 AM |
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kiryu133 said:
Since the problem is (and always was) that magic heroes simply aren't as viable in longer games since might heroes can scale with their army, wouldn't the answer be to allow Magic heroes do the same? like, increase spell power with army size for example? there was a warcry in H5 that did that.
Or make damage of spells a quadratic function of spellpower, not a linear one, as it used to be in previous Heroes titles. I've done a bit of explaination on that matter on the previous page. Let's compare graphs of a basic linear function: y = x and a basic quacratic function y=x^2.
What we can see here is that at the beggining, growth rate for values of function y = x^2 is smaller than for y = x. However, at around x = 0.5 growth rate for values of y = x^2 skyrockets and soon after, at x = 1, y = x^2 outruns y = x and keeps on going faster. As you can see, quadratic function can provide both slower start and more exciting late-game for spellcasters and hence it can decrease a gap between late Might and Magic Heroes.
I know that this image may not be representational, as graph is plotted for -1.1 < x < 1.1, but since the standarized formula of quadratic function is y = ax^2 + bx + c, and a, b and c values can be tweaked at will, this function may give us finally a good balance between Might and Magic Heroes.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted September 27, 2015 12:23 AM |
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again, the basic problem will remain: magic heroes are stuck at maximum power while might heroes can grow infinitely stronger with their army. If a magic hero gained a small boost to her spell-casting abilities based on the size of the army that wouldn't be much of a problem anymore. keep in mind I haven't thought this through much but it is an attempt in finding the root problem which I believe is might hero ability to scale infinitely which is something magic heroes can not do unless they go heavy might as well.
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted September 27, 2015 12:39 AM |
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kiryu133 said:
again, the basic problem will remain: magic heroes are stuck at maximum power while might heroes can grow infinitely stronger with their army. If a magic hero gained a small boost to her spell-casting abilities based on the size of the army that wouldn't be much of a problem anymore. keep in mind I haven't thought this through much but it is an attempt in finding the root problem which I believe is might hero ability to scale infinitely which is something magic heroes can not do unless they go heavy might as well.
I'd prefer the issue to be settled by just having one hero per class. It is just making spells depend on the size of the army quite odd. Even if you have the spell power as stat that negates the magic resistance, what would be done with beneficial spells, for example, or spells that summon creatures (e.g. Conjure Phoenix)?
By just having one class you can either play with might or magic skills (or both), rather than splitting them and make this problem all over again.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted September 27, 2015 02:06 AM |
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kiryu133 said:
I believe is might hero ability to scale infinitely which is something magic heroes can not do unless they go heavy might as well.
And exactly the very thing Stevie and I have been proposing here is something that allows the Hero's army to scale with Magic Hero power, through the concepts of Resistance and Spell Penetration, while also giving creatures a magic component in their attacks (either innate, through buffs, with Artifacts or Perks in Magic Schools).
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted September 27, 2015 11:46 AM |
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Maurice said:
And exactly the very thing Stevie and I have been proposing here is something that allows the Hero's army to scale with Magic Hero power, through the concepts of Resistance and Spell Penetration, while also giving creatures a magic component in their attacks (either innate, through buffs, with Artifacts or Perks in Magic Schools).
But it doesn't really solve the problem. Not all creature has (or should have) elemental damage and as has been mentioned, it should not increase an elemental attacks power. Only allow it to make it through more effectively.
While the magical pen and resistance could be interesting addition, it will also heavily encourage mages to go for very specific creatures removing some variety for armies as well as making her a hero that buffs her army. That goes against the concept of magic heroes being the ones that do damage in combat and turning them closer to might heroes doing their damage through creatures.
By increasing the power of spells through the size of the hero army you keep the magic hero doing the most of the damage in a fight while still making sure her army will always be inferior to that of a might hero's and allows her to scale indefinitely, solving the base problem rather than trying to work around it.
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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