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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Warfare skill
Thread: Warfare skill This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
natalka
natalka


Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
posted October 20, 2015 02:41 PM

Warfare skill

I don`t know how it was in the beta but now testing in arena this skill is pure joke. I think it should be on par with the shooters i.e kill half stack of opponent shooters or more but now it kills less than a dozen of them.

It won`t be OP because balista dies in one shot anyway. Now there is no need for this skill at all. It only makes me laugh..


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Steyn
Steyn


Supreme Hero
posted October 20, 2015 03:03 PM

For earlygame creeping the warfare skill is quite powerful. In lategame it is indeed not really useful any more, except for the namtaru buff.

Warfare units could indeed use a bit better scaling, but they are definitely not useless.

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The_green_drag
The_green_drag


Supreme Hero
posted October 20, 2015 03:11 PM

I have to say, I find it a bit useless as well. I haven't tried using it too early though so I'll give that a shot

Even when they get to level 5 I don't think the investment of skill points is worth what you get. And I don't like how you have to get an advance perk just to take Control of them. Is the point of leveling up warfare so you can use them?

I did expect more from this area, as war machines was one of the few things I liked about h5.  Lots of interesting skill perks for it.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted October 20, 2015 03:53 PM

I made the mistake to get warfare in the sylvan campaign I recall that it was nice with triple shot - and even then mostly useful in creeping - but it is pretty much worthless if you cannot get it to master. In the campaign you cannot(main hero is a warden) so it's a dead weight skill, even with the avenger ability that lets you shoot twice.

Does not scale well with armies and it should always be available on master. Otherwise, not much point in picking it.

The whole tree is messy to be honest. Manual control should have been a given for starters, not an individual ability. The ability for toughness is rather pointless and I'd much rather it was part of warfare mastery. The jump from one to three(!) shots on tier 3 is plain ridiculous, there should have been an ability for two shots in tier 2. I do not know how good GM warfare ability is(level 5 warmachines doesn't exactly tell me much) but I'm pretty sure it would scale better with a partial defense reduction.

And okay, suppose the ballista is fine. The healing/support warmachine is not even represented in the skill!! Many of them do not even resurrect! Healing warmachines are not only crappy but you also have to build a separate building just for them. Why would you do that?

It's like the team tried to give us a choice between offensive and supportive warmachine but only made the former worth picking. The whole skill tree could use a rework.
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ChrisD1
ChrisD1


Supreme Hero
posted October 20, 2015 05:53 PM

If you grand master the warfare(lvl 7 minimum) it s op. Latgame-wise it s completely useless except healing strong elites.
The haven heroes should be able to ressurect. And sylvan should be able to ressurect dryads.
As for academy,in terms of healing,it can heal constructs so it s ok in my books.
As for offensive warfare it needs to scale with hero level too in a way:/


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generic
generic

Tavern Dweller
posted October 20, 2015 06:19 PM

I think the point of warmachines on the Avenger is the artillery support given by the upgraded "Attention!" warcry. An additional shot whenever one of your creatures retaliates is probably worth additional investment at some point. Not sure at what point, but it seems ok-ish to me. Maybe the level 2/3 elven ballista's attack should add a mark.

I largely agree on the support units, though. The investment is rarely worth the opportunity cost.

The mother treant would be fine - if she worked as her description reads (the buff lasting for several turns). She can revive a reasonable (early game) amount of oak dryads and if the skillpoint is invested she gives a movement speed buff. Which is something that is difficult to obtain in this game, especially without using the hero action.
I still find myself ignoring her though, because the "wait" hotkey doesn't work on warmachines for some reason (it has a different tooltip - so different skill i guess?) and the animation is slow. And the bugs...

Then there is something like the faceless - deal minor damage when your creature is hit in melee. Nearly useless while creeping (maybe ok with the free Darkstorm Minotaur?), way too little effect later on.

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natalka
natalka


Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
posted October 20, 2015 08:59 PM
Edited by natalka at 20:29, 21 Oct 2015.


EDIT: multiplayer point of view

If warfare is useless in final battle and all factions have enough creeping potential without it then why take it? Absolutely no point.

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Pawek_13
Pawek_13


Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
posted October 20, 2015 09:01 PM
Edited by Pawek_13 at 15:56, 21 Oct 2015.

For me the greatest problem with the warfare units is that their attack is unaffected by Heroes' Might stat. This means that even in Might heroes' case they get weak very soon. I believe this needs to be changed.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted October 21, 2015 08:30 AM
Edited by Elvin at 08:37, 21 Oct 2015.

In short, I think we'd all like to see..

- Either more or less equal offensive and supportive warmachines. Healing top stack if fine with untrained warfare but come on.

- If not just merge their dwellings so that it's not a matter of always picking the good one vs picking the other if you feel like handicapping yourself.

- Giving them manual control from the get go. They are useless for untrained heroes otherwise.

- There should be a gradual progression in effectiveness, no jumping to triple effectiveness with one level...

- Better scaling so that it doesn't get too powerful earlyagme, nor become obsolete in mid to lategame. That requires improving with hero level or stats. It really is a pity that the traditional stats changed names, H5 had a fantastic idea in use both knowledge and attack to boost warmachines, making them useful for both might and magic heroes.. You can't do that with spirit. Plus who cares about the new names that nobody asked for..

- Spicing up the skill tree with the faction warmachine abilities would be nice. What are they doing in the racial anyway?
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Steyn
Steyn


Supreme Hero
posted October 21, 2015 08:42 AM

Maybe the scaling of the offensive warfare unit can depend on either might or magic, depending on the warfare unit. The shadow lurker and pyramid deal magic damage, while both ballista's deal might damage. This will make it also more interesting to buy warfare units of other factions.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted October 21, 2015 09:33 AM

Last I checked the damage displayed a might symbol.
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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted October 21, 2015 10:20 AM

Elvin said:
Last I checked the damage displayed a might symbol.


Then it's an incentive to change that .

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dredknight
dredknight


Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted October 21, 2015 10:25 AM
Edited by dredknight at 10:25, 21 Oct 2015.

the issue with balista can be fixed.

Beside the damage it does make it kill 1% of the stack total HP. This will make single/double and triple shot viable in phase of the game.
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Steyn
Steyn


Supreme Hero
posted October 21, 2015 11:51 AM

Elvin said:
Last I checked the damage displayed a might symbol.

That's strange. I was under the impression the pyramid deals prime damage and the lurker dark damage. When I play again I will check.

If you are right then I join Maurice in saying it needs to be changed. Anything to differentiate the different warfare units is welcome.

Btw, do people know if there is any difference between the different "catapults", other than their skin?

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The_green_drag
The_green_drag


Supreme Hero
posted October 21, 2015 03:35 PM
Edited by The_green_drag at 15:36, 21 Oct 2015.

Pawek_13 said:
For me the greatrst problem with the warfare units is that their attack is unaffected by Heroes' Might stat. This means that even in Might heroes' case they get weak very soon. I believe this needs to be changed.


This is just laughable. Warfare is a might skill, no? If you can't increase its damage with the heroes attack skill then what's the point??


And the catapults are all the same

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malax83
malax83


Famous Hero
Game ranger, HotA Player
posted October 21, 2015 05:38 PM

Triple SHoooOOOooOT  YiiiiHhaaaAAAAAAA !

Then Headshot .. Oups sorry Limbic / ubi

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Esparado87
Esparado87


Hired Hero
posted October 22, 2015 05:09 PM

How about treating the warfare units just like normal units?

-Can buy unlimited amount of warfare units, but the growth is slow compared too other normal core units (3-4 units per week?).

-Attack & defense attribute affects warfare units.

-Magic that affects stats too normal units also affects warfare units.

-Change the warfare skill-line so it does not become way to OP in the  beginning of the game, but makes it balanced in every part of the game, including endgame.

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ChrisD1
ChrisD1


Supreme Hero
posted October 22, 2015 06:55 PM

I disagree with elvin in two things.
No manual handling for the get go. We need to earn that,thus having a really useful perk. Yes it is always going to be picked but from my gameplay experience sometimes i didn't care for it. Especially for the catapult. Heroes 5 had a perk to let you use it manually.
As for the racials and warfare units i m going to say this.
On h5 we had a unique wheel for every faction. Thids wheel was enriched with faction related perks.(dead man's curse,plague tent etc)
Now all of those perks (although maybe less by a small number) are gathered under the racial ability. So of course we are going to see some warfare perks under the racial ability. In some factions it encourages you to use warfare. But warfare just needs some scaling or be dependant on heroes' might/magic.
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malax83
malax83


Famous Hero
Game ranger, HotA Player
posted October 22, 2015 07:17 PM

ChrisD1 said:
I disagree with elvin in two things.
No manual handling for the get go. We need to earn that,thus having a really useful perk. Yes it is always going to be picked but from my gameplay experience sometimes i didn't care for it. Especially for the catapult. Heroes 5 had a perk to let you use it manually.



Something which is little bit boring is getting manual control in spending two points (ballisata and catapult). In fact the real thing annoying is again the point spend for advance to the expert rank. The difference is pretty big considering all these changes (3 points against 5 point in total).

But anyway i complain again .. But i didn t buy this game Oh God...  

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ChrisD1
ChrisD1


Supreme Hero
posted October 22, 2015 07:26 PM

malax83 said:
ChrisD1 said:


Something which is little bit boring is getting manual control in spending two points (ballisata and catapult). In fact the real thing annoying is again the point spend for advance to the expert rank. The difference is pretty big considering all these changes (3 points against 5 point in total).

But anyway i complain again .. But i didn t buy this game Oh God...  

Well i never spent that point for the control of the ballista. I never cared for that. As for the point in rank, it needs to be discussed in another thread about the wheel.
But yes the scaling about the level of the warfare units, is indeed weird and poorly implemented.
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