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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: Thoughts on HOMM 4
Thread: Thoughts on HOMM 4
kevyip
kevyip


Adventuring Hero
posted April 09, 2002 12:39 AM

Thoughts on HOMM 4


After playing HOMM4 for a weekend, the following thoughts came to my mind, and I would like to hear others' opinions of them...

1.  Regarding marketplaces, is it possible to reduce the exchange rate to your advantage as in earlier games?

2.  According to the manual, positive morale gives a creature a better chance to act sooner in a combat.  I have noticed that it also seems to increase a creature's attack skill.  (When the "shiny eagle" appears above a creature, its attack skill goes up; if the "melting eagle" appears, it goes down.)  Can anyone corroborate on this?

3.  Does anyone feel a little confused about the "line of sight" rule as I do?  My problem is you cannot always form a straight line on a hex grid.  If we define a straight line as a series of straight and CONTIGUOUS hexagons, then a straight line can only be formed IF the line is tilted at a certain angle (precisely, 30, 90, 150, 240, or 300 degree).  But what if two creatures are facing one another at other angles?  For instance, if we have two horizontal rows of 10 hexagons, and one creature is at the leftmost hex of the first row, and another is at the rightmost of the 2nd row, then how is a straight line formed between them?  Does the "straight line" include 4 hexes from the 1st row and 6 from the 2nd, or 3 from the 1st and 7 from the 2nd?  And how is a creature considered to be blocking one creature from another?  What hex should it be standing on for it to be considered as obstructing the "straight line"?

4.  An extension to 3 above, perhaps. I have noticed sometimes a range attacker with no distance penalty CAN have its damage reduced by 1/2 or 3/4 (and the screen will show "x1/2" or "x1/4" damage).  This seems to be cause by the target being "partially blocked" by something.  The manual doesn't elaborate on this, so I'm guessing here.  Can anyone offer another explanation.

5.  Damage calculation in combat is, I would say, wildly different from earlier games.  In H3 and earlier, you subtract defense skill from attack skill, then multiply the result by 5% of your unmodified damage.  In H4, you DIVIDE attack skill by defense skill and muliply it with your unmodified damage.  Say, if attack skill = 40 and defense skill = 10, in H3 and earlier you only get 150% of your unmodified damage (50% more).  In H4, you get 400% (300% more).

Thanks in advance for any input.


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KEVYIP
KEVYIP


Adventuring Hero
posted April 09, 2002 06:14 PM


More thoughts...

6.  The Mass Forgetfulness and Dimension Door spells seem to be missing in HOMM4.  I would say the lack of these two powerful spells will greatly affect my gameplay.

7.  In H4, a hero can learn up to three secondary skills for each skill category.  I find it odd that three secondary skills are ALL a particular skill category offers.  Why not make the player choose 3 from among 6 or 7 secondary skills?

8.  In H3 and earlier, the hero class determines the likelihood a hero will learn a particular skill.  Eg. a Barbarian or Ranger is more likely to learn Archery than a Wizard or Warlock.  In H4, all skills are apparently up for grabs.  If you have acquired the Combat primary skill, it's almost guaranteed you will get the Archery secondary skill.  To acquire a particular primary skill, all you need to do is go to a University or other skill-enchancing structures.

9.  In H3, you can increase creature growth rate by upgrading a Fort to a Citadel and then a Castle.  In H4, such upgrades only increase town defense.  The only thing that increases growth rate seems to be the Nobility primary skill.  (Please correct me if I'm wrong.)


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bjorn190
bjorn190


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
posted April 09, 2002 06:21 PM

Quote:

More thoughts...

6.  The Mass Forgetfulness and Dimension Door spells seem to be missing in HOMM4.  I would say the lack of these two powerful spells will greatly affect my gameplay.



Theres only one reply that´s possible for a post like this..  I will tell you the truth, and it is..

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KEVYIP
KEVYIP


Adventuring Hero
posted April 09, 2002 06:39 PM


Could you elaborate a little on why you think my post is so naive?

The Mass Forgetfulness spell is useful against an army composed entirely of range attacks.  And the Dimension Door spell is essential in an extra large map where the enemy heroes keep outrunning you.  These are highly potent spells.




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bjorn190
bjorn190


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
posted April 09, 2002 07:36 PM

Quote:

5.  Damage calculation in combat is, I would say, wildly different from earlier games.  In H3 and earlier, you subtract defense skill from attack skill, then multiply the result by 5% of your unmodified damage.  In H4, you DIVIDE attack skill by defense skill and muliply it with your unmodified damage.  Say, if attack skill = 40 and defense skill = 10, in H3 and earlier you only get 150% of your unmodified damage (50% more).  In H4, you get 400% (300% more).

Thanks in advance for any input.




Like this thing you say here.. that you only get 50% more damage if you have 40 attack vs 30 defence. its wrong. you got 150% more, that is 250% of the unmodified damage. With your calculation, a creature with the same attack as its victim has defence would do zero damage in homm3, and that is wrong.


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KEVYIP
KEVYIP


Adventuring Hero
posted April 09, 2002 07:53 PM

Quote:
Quote:

5.  Damage calculation in combat is, I would say, wildly different from earlier games.  In H3 and earlier, you subtract defense skill from attack skill, then multiply the result by 5% of your unmodified damage.  In H4, you DIVIDE attack skill by defense skill and muliply it with your unmodified damage.  Say, if attack skill = 40 and defense skill = 10, in H3 and earlier you only get 150% of your unmodified damage (50% more).  In H4, you get 400% (300% more).

Thanks in advance for any input.




Like this thing you say here.. that you only get 50% more damage if you have 40 attack vs 30 defence. its wrong. you got 150% more, that is 250% of the unmodified damage. With your calculation, a creature with the same attack as its victim has defence would do zero damage in homm3, and that is wrong.




You misunderstood the wording in my post.  

What you should have inferred from my post is that, if the attack skill is the same as the defense skill, it does zero percent *more* damage, not zero damage.  See the difference?

I'm still waiting to your more informative answer to my supposedly newbie post.  Or are you suffering from mass forgetfulness? <g>


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bjorn190
bjorn190


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
posted April 09, 2002 07:57 PM

[quote  Say, if attack skill = 40 and defense skill = 10, in H3 and earlier you only get 150% of your unmodified damage (50% more).  In H4, you get 400% (300% more).

Thanks in advance for any input.


You misunderstood the wording in my post.  

What you should have inferred from my post is that, if the attack skill is the same as the defense skill, it does zero percent *more* damage, not zero damage.  See the difference?

I'm still waiting to your more informative answer to my supposedly newbie post.  Or are you suffering from mass forgetfulness? <g>



Please read what you wrote again..   you clearly state that you get 150% of your unmodified damage (50% more).
What else could the 50% more mean? What did you mean when you wrote 50% more? 50% more than what?

That is noob behaviour..
noob = newbie that thinks he is right and wont listen to reason

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KEVYIP
KEVYIP


Adventuring Hero
posted April 09, 2002 08:08 PM

Quote:

Please read what you wrote again..   you clearly state that you get 150% of your unmodified damage (50% more).
What else could the 50% more mean? What did you mean when you wrote 50% more? 50% more than what?

That is noob behaviour..
noob = newbie that thinks he is right and wont listen to reason



Are you capable of comprehending basic arithmatics?

150% of 10 equals 15.
15 is 50% more than 10.

Therefore, "150% of my unmodified damage" is the same as "50% more than my unmodified damage".

Do you get it now?  You are the stubborn one who is not listening to reason.


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bjorn190
bjorn190


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
posted April 09, 2002 08:10 PM
Edited By: bjorn190 on 9 Apr 2002

[quote

Are you capable of comprehending basic arithmatics?

150% of 10 equals 15.
15 is 50% more than 10.

Therefore, "150% of my unmodified damage" is the same as "50% more than my unmodified damage".

Do you get it now?  You are the stubborn one who is not listening to reason.




But with 40 attack vs 10 defence you do 250% of the unmodified damage, same as 150% more than the unmodified damage..

Do you see your error now? you said 150% instead of 250% and 50% instead of 150%

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Thunder
Thunder


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted April 09, 2002 08:22 PM

Just check one of my battle threads (View Profile). There should be correct formulas for damage in Heroes 3.

What comes for Heroes 4. I think damage is first multiplyed with attack and then divided with defense. Unless I'm wrong it has been stated in manual or in game itself.

Thus 100 damage *10 attack /10 defense is 100.
(Same as in Heroes 3.)

Thus 200 damage *20 attack /10 defense is 400.
(In heroes 3 total damage would have been only 250.)

Thus 400 damage *10 attack /20 defense is 200.
(In heroes 3 total damage would have been 300.)

Conclusion: Superior attack or defense has now even more effect in damage than before.
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KEVYIP
KEVYIP


Adventuring Hero
posted April 09, 2002 08:35 PM



Whoops!  My mistake.  DAMN!


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bjorn190
bjorn190


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
posted April 09, 2002 08:48 PM

ok you´re not a noob anymore =) lalala

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted April 09, 2002 08:54 PM
Edited By: Djive on 9 Apr 2002

1. There are external Marketplaces. If you visit one of them you get better exchange rates for the trades you make there.

2. I don't know how it works, but yes. Morale can affect the damage you do and take to a significant degree.

3. I believe the combat grid is a square one and not a hexagon one in Heroes 4. (Gus said something to this effect on The Round Table. Hmm... was it connected to the fact that creatures can face 8 directions and this is not easy to mix with hexes.)

4. Obstacles give 1/2 damage. Long range gives 1/2 damage. Some creatures like Orcs and Centaurs get this penalty for long range due to special ability "Short Range". Some spells may perhaps give this penalty, some artifacts may remove penalties.

5. Passing on the damage calculation. Others have already elaborated.

6. Forgetfullness is in. Don't know about the mass version.

7. This is an overall design decision for the game.

8. I'd say that it's much more difficult to increase off skills in H4. Almost all of your increase options will be in the two skills which constitute your normal advanced class. The only other skill third skill which is easy to get is Combat since you're offered it at least once every three levels until you have it at Grand Master. (This only applies to Combat and not to the secondary skills which belongs to Combat skill.) If I recall correctly, you'll be offered increases in other skills when you have five promotions in your two best skills.

So if you specialize say in Nobility and Life and visit a University to get Basic Order magic, then chances are that it will be 5-10 levels before you're actually offered to study Death Magic further.

There are some restrictions, mainly on which magic schools a class will be offered at level-up.

My experience is that if you want to get regular skill offers in a skill, then it had better be one of the two that makes up your advanced class. The only exception is Combat, since you will get offers in that skill in any case.

9. The Breeding Pit in the Stronghold increases production. The Grail structure also does this. Nobility only increases the Growth if you have a Hero who is Governer in the city. (And each hero can only be governer in one city.)
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jondifool
jondifool


Promising
Adventuring Hero
extinct but alive!
posted April 09, 2002 09:25 PM

Greetings added to 3.
I to have the expectation that the grid is now a square net where the 8 directions just means that you can hit from a 45 degree angle.  Actual I think that the grid is hide because it would look stupid if it was there. Try to test the area wheras a creature can move, sometimes its the whole screen wide , but not very much up and down!!

With regards
Jondifool
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KEVYIP
KEVYIP


Adventuring Hero
posted April 09, 2002 10:54 PM

Thanks, Djive, for your information on skills.  I'm inclined to think that H4 is more accommodating because it lets you acquire a total of 20 skills as opposed to just 8 in H3.  But H4 is less accommodating regarding the fact that getting 5 primary skills are prerequisites for getting the other 15 skills.

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