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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: Medusa special overpowered?
Thread: Medusa special overpowered? [ This thread is 2 pages long: (1) 2 ]
Scorpius
Scorpius


Hired Hero
posted April 10, 2002 10:56 AM

Medusa special overpowered?

The Stone Gaze is now a little like the Mighty Gorgon special from heroes 3, which i think is very cool. But it should really apply only in MELEE combat only, this way those Medusa's are the supreme Hero killer, in the life campaign is lost a Lvl 23 hero (second scenario) to one single shot (did only around 10 damage, but the stoning killed him)!
And single scenario, for instant for multiplayer its quite hard to build up a hero that far.

I know there are various ways to get around it;

Put troops before your hero for instance, but should a level 2 creature have so much influence on your battle tactics? (and it can really  be a restriction having to 'guard' those heroes.)

Drinking the Immortality potion. But again a high level hero with all those HP should have that potion for a big battle with some large stacks of creatures, not 1 lousy remote gaze from a Medusa. (What is the idea behind that anyway; is your hero supposed to use binoculars to see if those medusa's are gazing at him, it really implies short range)

And as far as my impression is now, the Asylum is rather strong anyway with those Bandits as early resource catches, so i really really hope that it is fixed in the first patch that comes out!
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Flashman
Flashman


Adventuring Hero
posted April 10, 2002 11:13 AM

I agree.

/Flash
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arachnid
arachnid


Promising
Famous Hero
posted April 10, 2002 11:31 AM

id of liked a new item like a mirror shield so it does the reverse and hits them instead of the hero, i mean it would not be that powerful but would be fun.


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Pootie_Tang
Pootie_Tang

Tavern Dweller
posted April 10, 2002 11:35 AM

Well I think 'guarding' your heroes is an important part of the game but you are totally correct about the Medusa being able to gaze you from across a battle field.  Jeez, if I was a commander and I knew there was some Medusa's on the battle field, the LAST thing I'd do would be to look in that direction.   hehe

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Krutselno
Krutselno


Adventuring Hero
posted April 10, 2002 01:20 PM

I agree with you  !
You should be able to have heroes with high level in the front. I lost a hero with level 24 an hour ago...
By a Medusa, which didn't hurt my hero much in hit points...but the gazing...I hate that !! It shouldn't be able to kill that easily !
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undead_wolf_...
undead_wolf_lad


Adventuring Hero
Undead Wolf Wrangler
posted April 10, 2002 01:27 PM

Regarding the medusas, I think it should be a very slight adjustment as far as the number of units killed by the gaze and the power of the stone gaze should decrease over distance...similar to the orcs or centaur units.

The initial damage should be as it is, but the gaze modifier should be something like this:
within 5 tiles: 100% stone gaze damage (as it is now)
6-8 tiles: 50% stone gaze damage
8-10 tiles: 25% stone gaze damage
beyond 10: no stone gaze damage

and to be fair, the other chaos range unit (the orcs) is pretty weak because of the distance modifier, so having the medusas as a kickass range unit isn't entirely unfair. You just need to be more cautious with your hero and guard him or her.


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FuriousGeorge
FuriousGeorge


Hired Hero
posted April 10, 2002 10:31 PM

A single medusa taking out a power unit is damn rare (but i guess it's possible, while impossible for other low level units).

At least it's not a monster stack of Mages. They can poison you, all but guaranteeing your death unless you have Heal spell or potion, and guarding your hero doesn't help as Poison ignores LOS.
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Pure_Chaos
Pure_Chaos


Bad-mannered
Known Hero
Destroyer of Morons
posted April 11, 2002 01:08 AM

Medusa special (and most other impedeing specials) should not affect heroes IMO.

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brody
brody


Known Hero
Pathetic Loser
posted April 11, 2002 01:39 AM

The stonegazing is very overpowering, but I don't think it should have no effect whatsoever.  I think the effect should be subdued, not removed.  Maybe it should take like 10 medusas per creature level to stone a creature.  In other words, a stack of 20 medusas could stone 0-1 lvl 2 creatures/heroes or 0-2 lvl 1 creatures/heroes, but couldn't stone level 3 or above creatures/heroes.  Then, to even have a chance of stoning a level 20 hero, you'd need 200 medusas.  That, to me, would be acceptable.

As mages go, in large numbers they are powerful, but because their attack is damage based, a high-level hero is much more likely to survive than a low-level, which is okay with me.  It's annoying to get poisoned, but nothing is as overpowering as that medusa attack.  Everything else seems fairly valid to me.  I mean, a large group of efreets can tear a hero apart (especially if your hero hits hard, because of fireshield), but we can't start saying efreets shouldn't be allowed to attack heroes, can we?
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Scorpius
Scorpius


Hired Hero
posted April 11, 2002 09:20 AM

'A single medusa taking out a power unit is damn rare (but i guess it's possible, while impossible for other low level units).'

>> One single shot, it was a stack of about 30 Medusa's.

I agree, the special should definetely not be removed and i also would NOT like to see that it could not effect heroes and/or higher level creatures, i agree with Brody here, there are enough other creatures being able to kill heroes, like the Efreet.

And i really like the fact that a lower level creature can be such a herokiller, only the 'point and shoot' method used now is a bit too easy, as indeed the stoning is unaffected by range.

The advantage of my suggestion is that if you have Medusa's you have a choice, shoot at a safe range like a regular ranged attacker or move up front and try to do some nasty killing.

Undead Wolf>> yeah, the Orc is pretty crappy, but that really is the only bad unit in the Asylum. But youre right that the change could make the Asylum weak at range attacking in general, so to counter that perhaps the medusa's damage range could be adjusted (same way like they patched the Lizardman Warriors in H3) to say 3-8.

Did anyone notice btw that the ranges from Chaos units are always (Troglodyte as only exception) relatively wide, and the damage ranges from Order units dont varry that much at all??? If that wasnt a coincidence then: nice touch!!
(Chaos creatures will do chaotic, unpredictable damage, while order units do a more stable amount of damage)
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted April 11, 2002 10:10 AM

Errr... No... I don't think the ability is overpowered.

And I don't see any real need to change it. Minotaurs have very nice abilties so in order to be a viable alternative Medusae also have to be good.

Heroes should certainly not be immune to it or other similar effects for that matter. They have to take their chances as everyone else or you'll have to protect them.

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Slava14
Slava14


Promising
Famous Hero
I am 16 now....
posted April 11, 2002 01:26 PM

Quote:
Errr... No... I don't think the ability is overpowered.

And I don't see any real need to change it. Minotaurs have very nice abilties so in order to be a viable alternative Medusae also have to be good.

Heroes should certainly not be immune to it or other similar effects for that matter. They have to take their chances as everyone else or you'll have to protect them.


Amen to that!!!

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arachnid
arachnid


Promising
Famous Hero
posted April 11, 2002 01:34 PM

If this abilty is able to kill lvl 24 heroes, does spilting a group of medusas in to many small groups and sending them as an assassin group to kill enemy generals work?
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HappyPike
HappyPike


Known Hero
Pikeman
posted April 11, 2002 02:08 PM

I don't know. In the barbarian campaign, my hero killed like 50 medusas all by himself (w/o using magic). Medusas seem to have very low defense.
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brody
brody


Known Hero
Pathetic Loser
posted April 11, 2002 02:22 PM

Quote:
If this abilty is able to kill lvl 24 heroes, does spilting a group of medusas in to many small groups and sending them as an assassin group to kill enemy generals work?


I don't think so.  Well, at least not very well.  It seems that the number of creatures killed by stoning is based on the number of medusas attacking.  When my heroes came up against medusas, I would feel safe if the medusa stacks were 10 or so, but if they were 40+ I knew a hero was gonna be dead...

To Djive and Slava14: If a small number of level 2 creatures can be guaranteed to kill a hero (not to mention level 4 creatures), how is that not overpowering?  I would choose medusas over minotaurs any day.  The block of minotaurs is nice, but they still don't hit hard enough to kill a level 24 general unless you have hundreds of them.  I am not joking when I say a stack of 40 medusas will almost be guaranteed to kill a level 24 general, I've seen it happen many times in the life campaign.  Therefore, there is no balance in level 2 creatures for chaos.  Why would you ever pick a minotaur when medusas will hit fairly hard and a large group (say 100 or so) can easily stone heroes (at any level) and MANY level 4 creatures without even getting into close combat?

And the fact that medusa retaliation can stone is even worse... you never want to melee/shoot a medusa stack unless you don't mind losing your attackers, no matter how powerful.  I've fought with 10 angels against a stack of 30-40 medusas and lost an angel (sometimes 2) every time - from stoning, of course.  That will NEVER happen against minotaurs.  It won't happen against any stack of 30 level 2's that I've come across, in fact.  Hell, even 30 level 3's have trouble doing that kind of damage to my 10 angels most of the time.
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Thunder
Thunder


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted April 11, 2002 02:32 PM

Quote:
If this abilty is able to kill lvl 24 heroes, does spilting a group of medusas in to many small groups and sending them as an assassin group to kill enemy generals work?


Hardly. Small number of medusas can't stone stare big monsters or tough heroes. Their power comes in their numbers, and the ability to stone (and to how many) depends also of the attacked troop's level or health.

You might consider making suicide attack with them, but you shouldn't split them. They have better chances to stone gaze that hero in single large stack. And if I remember right Medusas are quite slow (both in speed and movement) so this may easily backfire. Like attacking Preserve force which have Faerie Dragons (either Lightning or Confusion on the Medusa will work). And second, it may well be that opponent has some monsters between their hero and your medusas, so they can't attack due to the line of sight rule.
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brody
brody


Known Hero
Pathetic Loser
posted April 11, 2002 02:42 PM

Quote:
I don't know. In the barbarian campaign, my hero killed like 50 medusas all by himself (w/o using magic). Medusas seem to have very low defense.


First off, 50 medusas will likely split into 3 stacks of < 20 each.  At 20, they're not nearly as likely to kill a hero.  It's when you hit 30 you start to sweat, and 40 you know you're done.  And in the life campaign, finding 3 stacks of 40 medusas (120 medusas total) wasn't uncommon toward the end of a scenario.

Second, my level 24 heroes with master/GM combat and expert melee + archery could take on 50+ of any level 2 creatures.  Magi were tough because of poisoning, but all my heroes had at least basic magic res, which helped there, and magi are much weaker than medusas - no ranged retaliation, 15 HP vs. 24, etc... my high level heroes took on all sorts of level 1 and 2 creatures single handedly, but only medusas warranted saving and reloading regularly.
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DonGio
DonGio


Promising
Famous Hero
of Clear Water Mountain Clan
posted April 11, 2002 03:32 PM

I agree that their special seems a bit too powerful. However, even while facing stacks of way more than 40 medusas (in the life campaign), they never took out my hero with their stone gaze. They attacked him a lot, dealing relatively low amounts of damage, and I feared it always, that the stone gaze would kick in, but it never did.

Has anyone else experienced this? It has (not) happened so many times that I refuse to believe it a coincidence or a stroke of luck...

I have the EU version of the game, by the way. Could that have something to do with it?

Play carefully
DonGio
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wiggy_wam
wiggy_wam


Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
posted April 11, 2002 03:36 PM

the odds of a group of medusas stoning another group is dependant on:
- number of medusas (obviously)
- medusas attack skill (quite low)
- defense skill of defending creature

a hero with grandmaster combat will rarely ever get stoned, even against 200 medusas.  Medusas will stone many more level 1 or 2 units, stone a few level 3 units, and once in a while stone a level 4 unit.

I find it definitely balancing this way.  
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DonGio
DonGio


Promising
Famous Hero
of Clear Water Mountain Clan
posted April 11, 2002 03:41 PM

If what you're saying is true (which I have no reason to doubt), I think you guys complaining play the Lysander campaign using a weird (read: crappy) strategy. And it also makes the special more balanced.

Play smart
DonGio
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