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| Thread: Should all U.S. forces return home? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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frostymuaddib
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Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted January 21, 2016 01:21 AM |
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I never said that you didn't. I'm just pointing out that it is hard to see things from other angle, especially if it is personal.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted January 21, 2016 01:25 AM |
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Salamandre said:
Call it anti, if you feel being rational is too much. This kind of thread finishes anyway identical to Israel ones: when you disagree, you are anti, so this closes discussion.
For one example, I raised the Japan question but got nothing but the usual. I know there are real withdrawal issues for some nations and that makes me a U.S. flag waver? Over the years here, I've said much that it should be obvious that is BS and far from the truth.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 21, 2016 01:50 PM |
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markkur said:
If that is how you see all Americans than there is nothing more for me to say.
I don't "see" all "Americans" in any way, that is how I see your posts on the matter, particularly the tirade about the ungrateful or... don't know, uncaring people who you have delivered from hell knows what. That's my biggest issue really, the fact that you seem to think that your foreign interventions - any of them, one of them, no matter - had the goal to "save" anyone. That's what I call BS.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted January 21, 2016 01:55 PM |
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I think people in this region have every right to be upset with US foreign policy, and not just us. But then again, should I be distrustful of everything Russia does for a similar reason ?
The thing is, there's no "right answer" on this, from my point of view. Not objectively.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted January 21, 2016 02:51 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 14:52, 21 Jan 2016.
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Zenofex said:
That's my biggest issue really, the fact that you seem to think that your foreign interventions - any of them, one of them, no matter - had the goal to "save" anyone. That's what I call BS.
You've been entirely frozen on one mis-step of mine and completely ignored many other statements that should have cleared that up.
Quote:
The point I'm making is that except for some of the "obvious mistakes" that our Government has made there are indeed situations that seem very dangerous to leave, even if we (the U.S.)are "a mostly hated tyrant".
Yeah...red white and blue I am.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted January 21, 2016 03:13 PM |
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I wonder how many who reply to this thread actually watched the documentary.
What I find pretty insane is the calls for increased military spending in US, mostly from the Republicans. No amount is enough it seems.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 21, 2016 03:19 PM |
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Minion said:
I wonder how many who reply to this thread actually watched the documentary.
i haven't, to be honest. i'm rarely on a web browser that allows links.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted January 21, 2016 03:20 PM |
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Minion said:
I wonder how many who reply to this thread actually watched the documentary.
What I find pretty insane is the calls for increased military spending in US, mostly from the Republicans. No amount is enough it seems.
That is a problem that should be left to the U.S. people and government and certainly not up for us to decide anything.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted January 21, 2016 03:25 PM |
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Wut now? You are against discussion? On a forum. I have no idea what you mean by "us deciding" something either.
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted January 21, 2016 03:31 PM |
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Minion said:
Wut now? You are against discussion? On a forum. I have no idea what you mean by "us deciding" something either.
I'm against pointless discussion. To me personally there's no point in arguing about this any further, not because I hate discussion but because our opinions are fully subjective and everyone seems to have decided already what they think.
And of course, we here have absolutely no say in what the USA will and will not do. 
This will be a neverending story, or it will end when one side will get bored of insulting the other, or much worse. I'm staying out of this while it's still safe.
The rest of you can do what you like.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted January 21, 2016 03:42 PM |
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I share the same opinion of many americans that they can't afford such a huge military for much longer. Have had many great discussions about it actually. But thanks for the constructive opinion, was helpful. lol. 
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 21, 2016 08:30 PM |
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Drakon-Deus said:
our opinions are fully subjective
Absolutely not. Is a pity about language barriers but I could link a dozen of videos (french only) where all the protagonists: journalists, historians, philosophers, all of them put literally in pieces USA foreign politics, their long term interests and their destructive effects on Europe -we already harvest some now, with refugees and ISIS. And all this based on facts, released documents and rational synthesis. This is no longer a subjective opinion, is already history.
Michel Collon analysis on Syria war and USA interests (french).
Michael Flynn, USA DIA director babbling about the mess they created. (english)
And of course, I have to underline Zeno: when such dialectical views clash, it is not the American people who is targeted, but the politics of its dominant class. So please, give me a break about "anti-american", this is a lame shortcut which is killing the concept of arguing itself.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted January 21, 2016 08:51 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Michel Collon analysis on Syria war, USA interests.
Michel Collon is excellent, HERE is one video with english subs, dated but it's not like things have changed much anyway.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted January 21, 2016 08:54 PM |
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I couldn't agree with Salamandre more. 
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 21, 2016 10:48 PM |
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Galaad said:
Salamandre said:
Michel Collon analysis on Syria war, USA interests.
Michel Collon is excellent, HERE is one video with english subs, dated but it's not like things have changed much anyway.
i watched most of that video. did anyone catch when he was talking about some dictator having swiss bank acounts?
am i the only one thinking that banks financing terrorism(in any form), are a major part of the problem here? how about the corporations that prey on the world's resources(fed by an ever-growing populace)?
i know this thread is about u.s. involvement in foreign lands specifically, but is anyone maintaining an eye on the bigger picture? the bigger picture being, that the u.s. does not operate alone, and neither does the u.s. military. every major influence is to blame. every single one. those who have their hands in the cookie jar and don't say, "no, this is wrong, we have to stop this from continuing". those who falsify information and use propaganda to push agendas. those who INVEST their money/time/effort in these plans. those who FINANCE these kinds of things.
the way i look at it, if ANYONE SPECIFICLY is to blame, then everyone is to blame, in one form or another. even myself for what goes on in my country, and even all of you, for what goes on in yours. see how ridiculous that sounds? and it's still nonetheless true.
which is why it's pretty pointless to point a finger at any ONE source. the way i look at it, you can only fix what's wrong with power in the hands of human beings, when you fix what's wrong with human beings in the first place. and that'll never happen, not while any of us are still alive; not generations down the road, either. if the issue of power struggles and manipulation(along with every other problem that humanity presents itself) hasn't been fixed BY NOW, it never will be.
corruption breeds, because of human nature. because we think we can have power without responsibility(and it's largely obvious that nations and people get away with their deeds, because the world of nations are, after all, run by money). and no matter HOW many of that nation or people are killed, nothing will change. kill a million, a million more will take their place(most likely, even more than before, at our rate of detrimental increase); and THEY have the SAME FAULTS as those you killed. that's one lesson that the human race will never learn.
so kick back, relax, and enjoy what you can of your lives. because that's the best any of us can do. it's when we take our existence too seriously, that things become bad for us all. what we should be taking seriously, isn't ourselves, but everything around us; and our impact on it. everything else, does, after all, sustain us.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 21, 2016 11:01 PM |
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@ markkur: i tried watching the video in the op. i watched the beginning, and bits and pieces here and there throughout the rest of the video after that.
it's a pure propaganda piece, even from the getgo, man. i wouldn't waste 81 minutes watching it all.
nations can rise and fall on their own. they don't need the u.s.'s "help". we're not the world police, and no one should ever be. i realize the world is complicated with it's many different ways of life(that no one nation will EVER agree on), but it only makes things worse, when nations try to change each other(a.k.a., exploiting turmoil for their own gain). i realize that that is a useful tactic when it comes to building and maintaining nations, but as a supposedly "advanced" species of animal, we should be better than that. i expect more from "moral" human beings, regardless of the reality presented to me.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 21, 2016 11:35 PM |
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fred79 said:
then everyone is to blame,
Those generalized ramblings are a bit hypocritical as they are only partially right. If we observe the major conflicts recently, it is pretty easy to notice there is ONE leader minding of everyone's else business, stating who will live and who will die, and only when the decision is taken (votes at NATO are a masquerade), then you have the European minions rush to please the master, all wriggling tails.
In my opinion, America simply fails or has no recipe on internally producing a world-wide deserved leadership -commonly called greatness, leadership resulting from its inner cultural, social and moral achievements, thus it needs to compensate this visible lack of true substance by spreading its military power everywhere else, achieve a constantly "present" status, an ephemeral potency matching the egocentric speeches we hear here and there, every time one upcoming leader wants to tickle the nationalistic fiber.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted January 22, 2016 05:55 AM |
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Salamandre said:
Drakon-Deus said:
our opinions are fully subjective
Absolutely not. Is a pity about language barriers but I could link a dozen of videos (french only) where all the protagonists: journalists, historians, philosophers, all of them put literally in pieces USA foreign politics, their long term interests and their destructive effects on Europe -we already harvest some now, with refugees and ISIS. And all this based on facts, released documents and rational synthesis. This is no longer a subjective opinion, is already history.
"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon Bonaparte.
But like I said, carry on without me here. I'll leave them to you, Sal.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 22, 2016 01:36 PM |
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Salamandre said:
fred79 said:
then everyone is to blame,
Those generalized ramblings are a bit hypocritical as they are only partially right. If we observe the major conflicts recently, it is pretty easy to notice there is ONE leader minding of everyone's else business, stating who will live and who will die, and only when the decision is taken (votes at NATO are a masquerade), then you have the European minions rush to please the master, all wriggling tails.
In my opinion, America simply fails or has no recipe on internally producing a world-wide deserved leadership -commonly called greatness, leadership resulting from its inner cultural, social and moral achievements, thus it needs to compensate this visible lack of true substance by spreading its military power everywhere else, achieve a constantly "present" status, an ephemeral potency matching the egocentric speeches we hear here and there, every time one upcoming leader wants to tickle the nationalistic fiber.
it is true that many u.s. interests have been primarily involved in occupying and dipping their toes where they aren't exactly wanted(at least, not by the people snowing others up). but what i stated isn't generalized ramblings in the least. in order to understand my point, you have to pull back, and look at things from a wider view; all throughout history. then you will truly see where the hypocrisy lies. heinous or otherwise stupid or unsavory acts by governing entities are allowed, because the populaces of these nations allow themselves to be mislead, and do nothing. they sat on their asses, while things above and over them changed to a point to where they feel further detached and helpless from the systems that control every aspect of societies around the world. it is not just the powers that be, that are to blame for the state of things. it is the populace who allowed them all to take and continue having control.
that most people are lead like ducks to water(or that they don't, or can no longer get involved in, the outcome of their own nations), doesn't help. i am considered a conspiracy theorist, because i am incredibly skeptical of what i am being told by those in charge. i am told i am a conspiracy theorist, by everyone who DOES believe what they are being told by their governing powers. do you see where i'm coming from better now? do you understand just WHY i point the finger at more than those in power(specific nation be damned)?
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted January 22, 2016 02:04 PM |
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fred79 said:
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it's a pure propaganda piece, even from the getgo, man. i wouldn't waste 81 minutes watching it all.
Close but no cigar. It is not 'pure' <imo> it's the new version of what I call "blend". Iow, add some real footage of folks around the world that hold the views you need to kept things from going off the rails. But again that Japan vs China issue is <imo> a very serious matter not to be blown off or compared to American troops spending their money in European juke-joints. cafes or red-light districts.
<imo> This is what all powers are doing today. And (as you targeted in your long post) I think it is what makes people check out and become part of the problem. You know; hit with so much conflicting info, the emotion just surrenders the brain and it's "time to eat or shop".
I think it was Artu that raised a good point about; if all U.S. forces came home. it would be a huge problem for the U.S. economy. I agree but that is only half the problem "in places". There are bases where if the troops left it would be akin to a small mid-west town having it's manufacturing center head for China or Japan; as has happened countless times.
So there is a bigger ramification than purely U.S. interest and for any number of reasons that is what I picked-up from the video...a duplicity of sorts.
What would have been unlikely for posters here that are not from the U.S. to see, is that the actor running for Prez is saying exactly what most Americans think. And yet the vid is a slam-dunk against that thinking. That's the slick Blend-propaganda. Put some pleading folks stating why we must continue to expend enormous taxpayer-money overseas and usually without any trace of gratitude...because of what several crappy leaders have done.
Ftr, Russia is rebuilding a long deserted base in the Artic-circle; as Fred said; it seems there are lots of folks responsible for the world we live in. Man versus the Machines and the Machines have won.
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