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Heroes Community > MapHaven Guild > Thread: Let's Play: ~Metataxer's Revenge~
Thread: Let's Play: ~Metataxer's Revenge~ This thread is 14 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 · «PREV / NEXT»
bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted May 14, 2016 01:44 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 13:44, 14 May 2016.

Maybe it is comparing the damage he can do with Implosion versus the damage creatures can do (Implosion 1, Creatures 7) and it's stronger in the first case with or without breathplace and weaker if you add 4 to attack and deffense instead.

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Star_King
Star_King


Known Hero
posted May 14, 2016 03:36 PM
Edited by Star_King at 15:37, 14 May 2016.

Biobob said:
Addressing this topic, I also can only guess, but from my experience, power and knowledge are never considered by anything. The only passive check that exists in regards to magic is if there is a probability to cast certain spells (AoE damage for example - does not influence troop split however I think).


What about start of Xiedu where Sorcery specialist calculates she can kill legions of Bone Dragons + Ghost Dragons with 1 Gold Dragon + Armageddon and attacks you? Would power not be relevant to that calculation?

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RoseKavalier
RoseKavalier


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted May 14, 2016 03:53 PM
Edited by RoseKavalier at 16:01, 14 May 2016.

Biobob said:
Addressing this topic, I also can only guess, but from my experience, power and knowledge are never considered by anything. The only passive check that exists in regards to magic is if there is a probability to cast certain spells (AoE damage for example - does not influence troop split however I think). How much medusae were you able to kill in the Screenshots above? It would be possible that the AI splits it's troops for damage mitigation reasons... also I'm not sure if bow of the sharpshooter influences troop split.

Greets

I think it's clear that there are 2 different rules in this situation.

The first rule is for when you are compared to the minimum strength value. Hypothesis has been that if you can deal certain amount of damage, enemy will not split.

The second rule would be for comparing to the maximum strength value. I know for a fact that it is not only related to how much damage you can deal. I remembered my post in TEW2 where Cyclops King would split his forces if I went too early. Long story short, the shooters would split if I used Armageddon's Blade or Sword of Judgment to fight him.... but when I equipped +6 Attack sword, he would no longer split. Therefore, Defense has very much to do in calculation.

There is a formula somewhat similar to this, it's for Diplomacy!

Hero strength = sqrt[(1+0.05*Attack)*(1+0.05*Defense)]

This got me thinking and I went on a scavenger hunt. It's not considered in the same context as here but I think it might not be too far either. If it is indeed related, then the bad news is that there is a randomness to it (RNG roll 75%~100%).
EDIT: for those without Gamerhome account.

I'm not really interested in digging this to the bottom but I think these 2 rules of thumb should hold.

1- if you are very weak, AI will try to eliminate you by splitting
2- if you are very strong, AI will feel threatened and split to mitigate damage

EDIT
@Star_King
You're definitely right, although that would be part of 'why AI attacks' calculation.

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Biobob
Biobob


Famous Hero
the Bobler
posted May 14, 2016 04:36 PM
Edited by Biobob at 16:51, 14 May 2016.

Star_King said:
Biobob said:
Addressing this topic, I also can only guess, but from my experience, power and knowledge are never considered by anything. The only passive check that exists in regards to magic is if there is a probability to cast certain spells (AoE damage for example - does not influence troop split however I think).


What about start of Xiedu where Sorcery specialist calculates she can kill legions of Bone Dragons + Ghost Dragons with 1 Gold Dragon + Armageddon and attacks you? Would power not be relevant to that calculation?


Well, you could call it relevant, but I have a different theory about that. I think that the AI 'simulates' its first action in each fight. I tested this a bit a while ago:

>Give said hero any other other spell, he will not attack
   >>UNLESS you give him destroy undead and reduce your troops to ~200 dragons per stack, this will yield same results as Armageddon
        >>interstingly, while global spells like Armageddon and Destroy Undead work normal in this case, the same does not apply to single target spells: Try it our - giving said hero, for example, Implosion + dismissing all but one stack will make him attack, but after spell cast the battle will not end, and game will crash after a few more seconds.
>Give your hero speed artifacts, he will not attack
>Prevent spells from being cast, he will not attack
>Now for the big one: If you give your hero something along the lines of 25k Skeletons and give the enemy destroy undead again, he WILL ATTACK, even though the skeletons will be able to survive, making the gold dragon attack the skeletons like an idiot and die. I have no real explanation as for why he attacks in this case, I guess because it thinks that the damage done is good enough. This does not work indefinitely, however. Simply swapping Armageddon with Destroy Undead while not changing normal player army (2k dragons, 2k dragons, 3k skeletons) will make him not attack...

Also, it seems that the AI simulated the fight a high number of times to see if it 'safe':

>Giving expert resistance to player hero will make him not attack, even when reducing stack number to one. (Tested by ~30 restarts, as well as ~50 reloads)

Concluding from this, I think that the AI does not play through a whole battle prior to engaging (by means of autocombat or such) but only calculates the very first action. Like in this case, the dragons are way to weak to succeed, but with this constellation, they can be victorious. However, if we give just the right amount of troops, there seems to be a miscalculation of some sort or some other sneaky mechanic...

...after all, yeah, my previous statement was incorrect. Power does play a role, but it is an extremely marginal one. This case does only apply because of level 6424 sorcery specialist

Greets
____________
Maps
The Mapmaker's Thread

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RoseKavalier
RoseKavalier


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted May 17, 2016 06:47 AM bonus applied by angelito on 02 Feb 2017.
Edited by RoseKavalier at 07:47, 17 May 2016.

This one is a pretty big update, so I'm splitting it into two posts. I couldn't find the right spot to make two half updates [in terms of flow, not days] as everything is tied in together at this stage... pretty much everything done has an impact later on.

First, a minor but significant revision to 314.

314 revised

There are 2 notable changes. First, LLLB doesn't bring the Archmage along, this will save 182*2 movement but actually because of rounding it saves 423 movement.


Second, Friend has no time to go on a merry Tree ride, instead I send him to 'Sharp Corner' where he will go after a side quest.




####

Now update can begin!

315

LLLB runs on the Dragon's tongue, equip the 'Boots of Levitation' because he can't cast Waterwalk from where he's standing. It will take a day and a half to get to his objective...


Brewster heads back the same way he came on the previous day, stopping by 2 Trees on the way. 49-50


Equip the 'Power of the Dragonfather' and visit the Well before trying to pick up the +6 Helm.



It's a very easy fight if you know the lesser known forcefield trick. First, cast 'Slow' and distract the Archdevils by offering MGenies.


The Devils are greedy and don't come forward, leaving that task to the Faeries. Cast Forcefield and hide from the Faeries...


Next round, cast a second forcefield and you are safe from everything. Cast forcefield each turn until Devils are dead, then you can revert back to single forcefield.


Simple enough for a nice prize.



Sepello finishes visiting stat boosters then makes a few stops on her way to destination 'Sharp Corner', near Friend.



Along the way, we pick up some troops we had not hired as well as 1 of the 2 remaining Nomads.


Fresh off his capture of the Helm of Heavenly Enlightenment, Brewster brings his troops and artifacts to Sepello before heading elsewhere.


Similarly, Vertigo comes by in Sharp Corner and teaches Clone to Sepello as well as provide Artifacts that had been on LLLB.



Because movement on Friend is very very very tight, I sacrifice movement on pretty much everyone else to accomplish my goals in the time frame I've set.


Terrain is actually a mix of 'Rough' and 'Desert'. Give 'Armor of the Damned' and some +Attack artifacts to Friend as well as the Nomad - nothing else for now.


Once Friend gets this far, we can trade anew but this time providing all non-native troops for the sidequest.


Get rid of the Nomad... it would only slow us down with its 7 movement [3588 vs 3900].


Friend gets to the monolith and heads to this place which was ignored by Sepello earlier. Sepello has just enough movement to move 1 tile further, but this was just what I need anyway.


The first garrison is a joke...



We'll see about the others next day!


Before ending the day, spend Brewster's and Vertigo's movement. Brewster will go sell the 800 resources we collected while Vertigo goes to pay respect to long-deceased Rubicone...



...not really, there's a town there protected by Black Gate which we couldn't open much earlier - not that I would have captured it anyway as I will explain next day.




316

Friend continues his sidequest... equip the 'Armor of the Damned' and split some lone MGenies for blocking purposes.


The second garrison looks a bit more fearsome.


Mainly because it's anti-magic, but that doesn't stop the Armor of the Damned!


In this attempt morale was beneficient so that I could kill the Phoenixes round 1. If not, I would provide more targets for Phoenixes+Titans.


Archdevils finish off the Phoenixes during Wait Phase and MGenies block Titans.


Round 2, start killing Titans and keep blocking.


Round 3, enemy shooters are dead, kite until victory.



Last garrison is also a joke. First, kill 1000 Archdevils using 4 Titan stacks. Magic can be cast here so it's even more easy.



The second anti-magic garrison is also simple, enemy forces are too weak.



Claim your reward...



Because I can't spare 141 movement, I leave this artifact behind. It's not that useful anyway.


Rest Friend for a moment, now we go to LLLB. Continue until you meet the hero at the end of the Dragon's tongue and prepare for battle.


This hero doesn't wear 'Badge of Courage' so we can cast Blind/Forgetfulness.


Enemy placement during Tactics phase leaves a lot to be desired. The firebreath will lead to the enemy to exhaust all SP on resurrecting Rust Dragons, finishing short.



Because Faerie Dragons have chance to reflect spells, I find it easier to simply let them exhaust their 5 spell casts, even though the damage is tremendous.


Resurrect the fallen Angels while Faeries waste their casts.



I cast Armageddon for fun. Well, it helps a bit with unit placement within the garrison but it's not necessary.


Because we now know 'Clone' magic, Archangels are even more ridiculously powerful. Within a few rounds, you can raise everything in your powerstacks.


Because of Morale issues in this fight, I did not bring Ghost Dragons. I did try bringing in my Azure Dragons but the enemy did not like their presence and would exit the castle. So, the safest way to kill the Azure Dragons is the 'Clone through wall trick'. Place the unit you want to clone right up against the wall and encircle it with troops as shown. It's very important to have the creature standing ON the moat, otherwise the clone will glitch and be invisible - stuck on the moat and in the wall.


During the fastest unit's turn (Archangel, all enemies should be defending), cast clone.



Because my units are taking all the room near the Behemoths, the game calculates that the closest valid spot to spawn the Clones is across the wall.



Spend around 20 rounds killing the Azures...


Once the risk of 'Fear' is gone, we can revert to the more effective Teleport strategy.




Rinse and repeat... resurrect everyone before killing the last enemies.


No casualties on our side...



Now it's LLLB's turn to wait a bit. Sell just about every resource with Brewster, keeping some 400 Gems.


Vertigo waltzes in this free town...


It happens to be Purple's last. First AI down!


This town has an event every week starting sometime in month 2, granting many many many creatures. By waiting this long, I was able to collect a nice bunch of Archangels and Enchanters. So long for the 600,000 gold I had just gotten.



Now that these 4 heroes have accomplished their objectives, there will be a big meetup in R'yleh.


First, LLLB gives his troops and artifacts to Vertigo... then flies Sharp Corner to move some troops and finally to Fronke and waits there a bit.




Second, Friend learns Clone from Vertigo and gives all artifacts+army.



Friend also heads to Fronke, using the Nomad and T-Bird collected by LLLB. Once again, get rid of the slow Nomad once movement is done.



Finally the big meeting in R'yleh comes to a close as Vertigo gives everything he got from Friend and LLLB to Brewster.


Brewster makes a stop to this still unvisited Library. (So much movement, she gets time to do extra!)


Before red completely overruns our positions, we can still take down some of their heroes. Notably, this gal heading toward Hells Kitchen.


Melusine typically has 300 Titans with her army (and only Tower creatures) but she traded with another red hero earlier, making her a pushover. Clone Titans and be done with her.



The last portion of this day is to bring the artifacts and army to Sepello who is waiting near 'Sharp Corner'. This is done by Vertigo who obtains them from Brewster in R'yleh once more.


TP to Sharp Corner and pick up some specialist troops.


Finally, this crazy moving around comes to a close as army and artifacts are delivered to Sepello. Wizard's Well is the most important artifact here as we will shortly see...



Sepello enters the monolith and goes back to this place she visited a few days earlier.


This time we can go through because the hero 'Tongue' was just defeated by LLLB.


The SP traps in the snow are still lying around... hence the Wizard's Well. Stop 1 step short of the red hero, even if you have movement left because no spell points are left!



As a closing to this first portion of the update, we see heroes getting in place for next day. Vertigo who lacks Logistics can boost the next day's movement a bit by stopping in Beertent...


LLLB walks past Friend to the green monoliths and spams space a bit to get here.


Show-off Brewster manages to spend extra movement by visiting more stat boosters near Fronke.


During the night, one of the original 2 red heroes wreaks havoc on our holdings...


And a new, more formidable, red hero comes up to take Melusine's place.






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RoseKavalier
RoseKavalier


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted May 17, 2016 06:48 AM
Edited by RoseKavalier at 09:10, 17 May 2016.

317

Let's begin with the big fight of the day. Enemy knows 'Armageddon' so we must protect from it.


During Tactics phase, bring the Wraiths forward.


For this fight to work with only 1200 spell points, I need a few things to work in my favour. First, there's no way I can fight 2 shooters this strong, so let's deal with this.

To prevent Archangels from using 'Resurrection', moving, and being cloned - simply cast Blind. Enemy will ignore their presence entirely. The Archdevils are overkill for the Ammo Cart but I didn't really want to split them up - logistics of troops is already a nightmare as is.


The Rust Dragons kill the Archdevils without moving, which allows 1 Wraith to cause firebreath on the Titans!


Similarly, the second Wraith can annihilate the Enchanters with the Azure's firebreath. Enemy creatures only move away from firebreath if they have nothing better to do. Because shooters prefer to hit our army, they don't bother moving.



Next round, enemy casts 'Clone' on Azure Dragons... because of firebreath concerns, the real Dragons are forced to move. They don't go 1 hex down as that is still at risk for firebreath - instead they go step right on the Enchanters. There is now no way for enemy to resurrect his own Enchanters


Non-Friend heroes need to stop the Catapult during round 2 at latest. (Round 3 if you're patient with RNG)


Round 3, we can further reduce the Titans by using the Archmage for firebreath



The wraiths will be brought back to help drain enemy SP, he is very strong and will be able to cast offensive spells after resurrecting his Titans.


Sepello the armor specialist helps to reduce SP costs a lot because enemy damage is cut in half. If I had used Friend for this fight, there would not be enough spell points probably. So it was either Sepello or LLLB for this fight - I'm quite satisfied to have found a way with Sepello and 1200 SP!


Eventually though, the enemy will finish off our tanks. Sepello doesn't have the means to counter so much damage with resurrection so simply go back to resurrecting a small stack to attract enemy shots.


When the Titans are finally out of ammo, resurrect+clone the Archangels and eventually Behemoths.


Meanwhile enemy will still be casting 'Resurrection' but will soon start shifting to other spells. In order to prevent the enemy from exiting the garrison from lack of space, it's important to keep the Archangels blinded.


The enemy is still not drained and will begin casting Implosion - not to worry as 1 or 2 Cloned Archangels will offset all damage.


The moment enemy falls under 20 SP (19 or fewer), it's crucial to kill the Clones. There is high risk that the enemy will shuffle troops when he is out of spell points, especially the Archangels which are in "danger" from the Cloned Azures.



Finally, Isegrim is exhausted.


There's one problem remaining. Enemy has 'Sphere of Permanence' so I can't dispel 'Prayer' on his Azure Dragons - they will remain faster than my Behemoths even if I had expert Haste. While I could kill the Azure Dragons with the Clone trick, Sepello's SP is too low to perform such an inefficient tactic. Blessed Behemoths are much better than Clones! So... wait it out. Keep defending until Prayer wears off


Just as enemy spells start to wear off, boost your Behemoths with max speed.



Using Wraiths to remove retaliation, we use Teleport tactic to kill the Azure Dragons. The Ghost Dragons ensure safe teleport-out of the garrison.


Repeat 16~17 times until the Azures are dead. From this point on, use the Ghost Dragons to remove retaliation as there is no need to Teleport them out AND because you might just be able to inflict double damage.


Rinse and repeat as well... resurrecting all our army.


Very tight fight in terms of SP. Depending on RNG you may actually run out.



Sepello gets 2 levels for her trouble, 48-49.


Before heading elsewhere, go fight the Crystal Dragons behind the Tower.


They die instantly... the reason for the detour is the artifact they hold which is necessary in the next portion of the main quest.



With the Diplomat's Ring in hand, head to Fronke and pick up troops left in the castle.


These as well as the artifacts are given to Brewster.


Brewster, Friend catch up to LLLB by entering the green monolith.



Brewster trades with the other 2 heroes, MGenies to Friend to save movement.


And artifacts+army to LLLB.


LLLB opens up the second quest guard with the Diplomat's Ring - the first quest guard wanted the death of the red hero defeated by Sepello.


As movement on Friend is very tight, I spend extra movement with Brewster so that Friend doesn't get penalized.


All artifacts are removed from Brewster except for the 4 shown below. You'll see why at the end of the update...


The terrain underneath is 'Rough' so the TBird is quite important in getting Friend as far as possible.


LLLB who was ahead by quite a few steps last day goes forward and opens up the Dark Blue border guard before trading with Friend.



Almost all the army is left on LLLB and a meagre composition is given to Friend.


To kill frifix for a third and final time, Friend will execute the hit'n'run tactic so that LLLB can come and clean up afterward. First, expert 'haste' thanks to the Magic Plains.


The Phoenixes destroy the First Aid Tent which opens up the way to Dragonflies to eliminate the Sharpshooters as well as cause great damage to other creatures.


It's very successful!


Round 2, resurrect Wraiths during Catapult's turn.


We can cause more firebreath damage to Titans


frifix is wearing the 'Power of the Dragonfather' relic which typically means the enemy is not worried about buffs as it can't cast any. However, Friend went out of his way to learn 'Implosion' - thus frifix tries to buff his units with 'Magic Mirror'.


Let him do just that... in the meantime keep resurrecting 1 stack of Wraiths. After a while, frifix is done casting 'Magic Mirror' and begins summoning Earth Elementals. The moment there are 10 of them, DO NOT RESURRECT ANY TROOPS, that includes Wraiths. Mechanics for staying within the garrison change based on the castle. For Stronghold, it doesn't work very well when the enemy is out of shooters (does it consider its arrow towers as weaker than other castles? not sure). At this point in time, the enemy will cast offensive spells if you have any troops alive - other than Elementals!


After 24 rounds, the Titans are spent.


Now we begin the second phase of the hit'n'run - exhaustion. 'Dispel' is just way too convenient... it almost always works!


frifix will continue spamming Magic Mirror because he's afraid of my Implosion


Repeat a few times until he is exhausted - which brings me to phase three of the hit'n'run. This part is definitely not mandatory but I decided to show it in case you ever need to reduce certain stacks. Grab a bunch of Elementals and cast Haste so they outspeed the Titans.


As the Titans are defending, we will lure the Rust Dragons forward. Because the Titans are out of shots, they now try to move out of the way of firebreath because they have nothing better to do. However, the Rusties don't care about the titans


And so you can draw firebreath some more.


Sometimes Titans will move into an awkward position... no problem, force the Titans to move instead.


More firebreath!


And this time it's even better because the Titans are not defending.


I repeated a few times until ~300 are alive, any lower and LLLB might have some difficulties next.


Phase three of the hit'n'run is over... before I take my leave, we can at least recover the Phoenixes. Get twice as many targets are there are flying enemies then raise Wraiths.


The enemy immediately exits to kill the dangerous enemy... as you can see, Behemoths tactic cannot work in this context.


Next round, resurrect Phoenix during Catapult's turn and run like you just emptied Fort Knox



Mr. Fat re-hires Friend, naturally.


Now that frifix is almost toothless, LLLB enters the fray.


He will kill our Enchanters and then focus on Ghost Dragons for 24 rounds, nothing special.


When there are precisely 4 shots left on the Titans, cast Haste and Prayer. Could be done at 3 as well I guess...




At the last shot of Titans, hide the Vampire Lords behind forcefield.


Enemy immediately exits to kill our dangerous Archmage and First Aid Tent...


Because enemy wears 'Power of the Dragonfather', he has absolutely no +speed boosters. With our +4 speed, Haste and Prayer, Vampire Lords are guaranteed initiative and thus forcefield safety.


Simply resurrect the Enchanters and Frenzy them... 100% safe combat thanks to Friend's hit and run.



No need for losses whatsoever here



With frifix finally gone from the map, Vertigo and LLLB can push ahead.



Both heroes meet near the green monoliths as some further trading is required.


Make sure to get the 'Sword of Judgment' to Brewster.


Vertigo will go through the troll garden where you can only make a few steps a day... we'll get a new Sword of Judgment on 322.


Hitting spacebar some more, Brewster comes on the next target. This is probably the last difficult fight of the map



Naturally, Brewster has no hopes of winning this fight with this few troops. Instead, we have another hit'n'run strategy.


The enemy kills my Phoenixes while causing firebreath on his Cyclops. He would not move 1 hex higher for fear of the Azure Dragons' firebreath


Teleport out the surviving Phoenix... we'll need all troops we can.


Next, lure the Azure Dragons. Again, their movement is dictated by fear of the Phoenixes' firebreath.



This places them right in place to damage the Faerie Dragons however... also the Phoenixes hit the Cyclops a second time



Round 2, Phoenixes eliminate Cyclops.


Faerie Dragons are further reduced... Azure Dragons still don't consider moving as they are in no danger.


For the hit'n'run to be truly successful, a small bit of RNG is needed. For one round, the Faerie Dragons must cast a Fire-based spell. This will ensure 1 Phoenix survives to round 3!


And what a round 3 this will be...


A familiar sight for Brewster who, for a second consecutive week, is defeated. I'll take 1000 Faerie Dragons and 4000 Cyclops for 21 Phoenixes any day of the week!


The rest of the day is pretty quiet, Sepello can collect more resources from an hidden event near frifix's home.



Sepello and LLLB will refresh SP during the night.


Friend is sitting at the Tavern, out of movement.

Brewster is dead.







With 2 more red heroes defeated, 2 new ones are spawned. There are now 3 roaming red heroes on the map, they are trading with each other and one might get quite strong


###

Quite happy with these 3 days, I had not anticipated being able to make it this far in such a short time!

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted May 17, 2016 11:47 AM
Edited by Salamandre at 12:11, 17 May 2016.

Very impressive fights!  I see old hit&run tactic is gonna shine a lot toward the end.

I noticed you never bring familiars for those fights where SP can be deficient in the end. Is there any reason to it like towers focusing on them?

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RoseKavalier
RoseKavalier


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted May 17, 2016 08:55 PM

Thanks! I'm pretty certain these were the last hit&runs I will perform in this map, there won't be need for anymore after the next update as will become clear.

Regarding Familiars, not only do Arrow Towers target them (like Archmages) after a while, but in most cases where I could have used them (with Friend and Sepello), I had no room for them. All creature slots in my army were filled with more important ones.

For example, Sepello's fight vs Isegrim:

1. Archangels (Clone+Resurrect, biggest SP saver)
2. Behemoths (damage)
3. Ghost Dragons (fear)
4. Archmage (SP, better than Familiar)
5. Wraiths (Drain SP and firebreath)
6. Wraiths2 ("")
7. Archdevils (destroy Ammo Cart turn 1)

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Nikos
Nikos


Hired Hero
posted May 17, 2016 10:46 PM

Hello! Really nice work!
About frifrix, I used three heroes (Brewster, Sepello and A Friend) to beat him. The first (Brewster) abused dragonbreath to have all Titans and Sharpshooters killed, the second (Sepello) exhausted his spell points through magic mirror and dispel (as you did) and the third (A Friend) used the classic tactic: Azures + Enchanters + force field + frenzy. If anyone is interested, I can show what I did exactly. I think that a hero with implosion and no tactics can be used for both dragonbreath and exhaustion. This way the battle was a bit faster but an additional hero was needed.
Anyway seeing a Dragonfly dispel one of frifrix's spells, made me realise that I could dispel his magic mirror although he had the Power of the Dragon Father. But how could that be possible? Isn't this artifact supposed to make all troops of the specific hero immune to 1st-4th level spells?
Also when I was trying to get some dragonbreath, I found out that if I fight many times the exact same way, the RNG elements (e.g. fear, morale) will always be the same. So I think that if the RNG isn't favourable, just a reload isn't sufficient. Instead a small change (e.g. defending instead of waiting) is necessary.
What do you think?

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Supreme Hero
posted May 17, 2016 11:24 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 23:24, 17 May 2016.

@Biobob I love this trick u used to provide AI with stronger heroes after the first ones are defeated, how would you feel if sudenlly it almost becomes a norm for custom maps?

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RoseKavalier
RoseKavalier


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted May 18, 2016 04:46 AM

@Nikos
Thanks!

Dispel is a broken spell... what can I say. The only thing that blocks it is the 'Sphere of Permanence'.

Battle RNG is determined by actions but also by time. If you wait several seconds (sometimes 20+), the outcome becomes different. This I learned from trying out LMOracle.

Other things that affect it from what I've observed:
- using Tactics or disabling it
- where you move creatures in Tactics phase
- position of units in army (like 6 stacks vs 7 stacks)
- casting spell at different time (after creature #2 or #3 has moved for instance)
- which units you bring along
- if you move to attack with mouse or by using arrows/NumPad

There might some others, for example I never bothered to check whether changing Morale/Luck had an effect.

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Biobob
Biobob


Famous Hero
the Bobler
posted May 18, 2016 11:04 AM
Edited by Biobob at 11:04, 18 May 2016.

Yep, the easiest way to change battle RNG is waiting some more I think anything you do changes the RNG however

I an not the creator of this technique It is used in many Chinese maps, with most heroes sent in maps 'Amistad' and 'Iron Man 2.0' if I remember correctly. I think even 'Xiedu' has some of these prison heroes! The main reason for using them is the 8 hero limit however. Balancing their strenght is a big problem, as these heroes will follow no rules and trade amongst each other possibly. Anyway, you can use it to up the stress level a bit in a game that is relatively quiet

Greets
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Nikos
Nikos


Hired Hero
posted May 19, 2016 12:03 AM
Edited by Nikos at 00:05, 19 May 2016.

RoseKavalier said:
@Nikos
Thanks!

Dispel is a broken spell... what can I say. The only thing that blocks it is the 'Sphere of Permanence'.

Battle RNG is determined by actions but also by time. If you wait several seconds (sometimes 20+), the outcome becomes different. This I learned from trying out LMOracle. (...)


First H3CombatTerrain and now LMOracle.  If you have more helpful H3 programs to suggest, please do!

Once again, thanks!

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Biobob
Biobob


Famous Hero
the Bobler
posted May 19, 2016 12:11 AM

I recommend to you this thread
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RoseKavalier
RoseKavalier


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted May 19, 2016 07:26 AM
Edited by RoseKavalier at 23:12, 19 May 2016.

Small update, one day at a time.

321

Vertigo crawls a few more steps towards the Sword of Judgment... ETA 322.


The R'yleh Oasis trick will now be replaced by the "frifix' end Rally Flag and Oasis" trick, it provides more movement but also more morale and luck. Also, the ground underneath is non-penalty so Friend and Sepello need not worry what units they are carrying.


Sepello picked up the slow units from the town's garrison, giving the Enchanters and Archmage to LLLB.


Since it's a new week, all heroes should visit Stables again.


Head back to Fronke...


Here I pick up Azure Dragons and some Wraiths which had been left there the previous day.


Head to the green portals, following in Brewster's path.


LLLB, with Pathfinding, can just make it to 'Nosferatu' and then leave with TP.


Because of Brewster's excellent hit and run, this fight is now a breeze. The AI will Blind our Enchanters, but I need them to die right away so Cure everyone...


The Archangel is moved in front of the First Aid Tent, this lures the Azure Dragons in a firebreath position.


However it is not yet the time to kill the Enchanters. If you do so, all units will exit the garrison, same as the previous fight vs. frifix3. I'm really not certain was has changed since that previous fight where the AI is now willing to exit to kill weak troops, when I fought Tongue and Isegrim the AIs didn't bother moving

Anyhow, the enemy will kill our troops 1 by 1, I even suicide the Archmage.


Because the enemy still had all of its SP, I will need to exhaust them and make certain that only 6 or fewer are left to prevent him from casting 'Haste' later on. At this point it would be possible to suicide the Wraiths to get rid of the Enchanters (5 SP left as AI will spend in multiples of 11) but the Pegasi froze in panic... so hit 'Wait' with the Wraiths and summon some Elementals.


Next round, AI will kill Pegasi. Raise the Wraiths...


After draining SP, we can see that 861 (mod 11) = 3 so it's a suitable time to kill Enchanters.


Because the Wraiths last action was 'Wait', they get to move this same round. Bye bye Enchanters!


The enemy knows 'Sacrifice' but not 'Resurrection'. From now on, he would like to spam 'Earth Elementals', but he will first protect against our 'Meteor Shower' by casting 'Protection from Earth'.


Cast 'Dispel' every round, spending 2 SP to the AI's 11. It's certainly possible to let him summon more Earth Elementals but the risk of troops changing position as well as the need to kill more enemies with limited shots is not enticing to me.


After some 80 rounds, the enemy is drained!


Artifacts worn by Nosferatu provide him with +4 Speed, making his Phoenixes too fast for me... no problem, cast 'Slow'
Also you can notice that enemy units always Wait first, this will be useful in a moment...


Next round, place a pre-emptive Forcefield... the one after, resurrect the Azures. The enemy is still waiting, which assures our Azure Dragons the initiative next round.


As I said, we act first even though there was a speed tie. Forcefield for safety.


Next round, guaranteed initiative with Prayer!


Now we simply use the forcefield + Azure tactic mentioned by Nikos previously. Resurrect Enchanters...


Buff Enchanters and kill enemy. Because there aren't enough shots to kill all Elementals, some of them are killed with 'Meteor Shower', leaving 1 shot for the last Elemental.


The last Elemental is kited while we recover our specialist troops.


No casualties, once again!


We get quite a few artifacts by winning, but 5 of these were from Brewster.


Next up, we active Friend. Trade with Sepello near frifix' end after visiting Stables.



In order to let Friend visit the movement boosters, move Sepello away to one of the Stables. The Vampire Lords are dropped off in the garrison for now.


As Friend didn't get the time to move after his hit'n'run, his SP are very low. Grab the Artifacts from LLLB as well as Enchanters in Uruk, near the Well.



Visit the Well, we're set for a while.


As is often the theme in this map, go back once again to a place you just went through.


This time around, creatures in the garrison are picked up.


Make your way to the green portals once more... it's not the last time.


After smashing spacebar a bit, we get back to the portal that had first led us towards frixi3. But this time, we're heading straight north because Nosferatu was defeated.


The Anti-Magic garrison is actually, very easy.


Every one of my stacks can 1-hit the enemy. With +4 Speed, Archangels can make certain the the enemy Phoenix don't get to move.


Not much to say here... not even the need to use Tanks.


Finally, we see the purpose for this sidequest, the Orb of "You're now vulnerable to Blind tactics".


And with this, the last difficult fights of the map are behind us, congratulations on making it this far! The remainder will be mostly logistics to get to Metataxer as fast as possible.

With his last 200 movement, Friend sleeps in Acre 5.


Bring in Sepello who will take army and Artifacts.



It's now time to execute the Red heroes. First, this joke of a hero.


He's vulnerable to Blind even without the Orb of Vulnerability.


But beside that, we are pretty much evenly matched in terms of strength, actually we can deal a lot more damage than her.


Blind everything then slowly kill the sitting ducks.


Nothing to it...



Then a second hero. There's also a third hero here but I ignore him for 2 reasons: he has Pendant of Second Sight so immune to blind; not enough movement!


Because Sepello has already fought 1 battle, the morale boosters from Oasis and Rally Flag are gone, so I can't use the Sharpshooter's Bow...


Same thing as previous fight, Blind Tactics.


Kill what you can so that enemy is neutralized faster, it doesn't matter if we lose everything but 1 creature, with Archangels everything can be fixed in a second.


Last Blind...


I used Azure Dragons to eat retaliation and Behemoths to eat through armor.


Again, nothing to this fight.



After visiting 1 Tower to buy Ammo Cart, then the new Oasis trick, go back to Acre 5 to swap armies with Friend.


Wizard's Well goes to Sepello... useful for next day.


Speaking of which, his next day will be a fight in the water near 'Leak in Heaven'.


Remember this place?


I sure do... grrrr.


Except, this time we're better prepared


Final step of the day, re-hire Brewster.


Sadly, Kyrre starts with Dwarves so there's a big movement loss from the defeat on 317. No matter, I had put aside some artifacts on Mr. Fat just for this.


Visit the Stables in 'Pay Castle', which is where I had left the Vampire Lords.


Now head to our newest town, 'Bob' where Nosferatu just bit the dust.


There's a very long hidden passage here... follow it until next day.


End day! We're under Attack! Acre 5 is under siege!

This is the hero with the 'Pendant of Second Sight' so he is immune to Blind even if you have the Orb of Vulnerability. Fortunately for us, he's not very clever and can be defeated easily. In my attempt, his Cyclops froze under Fear... if they didn't, we can use the Archangels to resurrect whatever was damaged.


The Forcefield placement ensures our troops are safe and 'Sphere of Permanence' ensures no Dispel shenanigans. Combined with very high killing power, there isn't that much more to this fight.


The enemy will alternate between 'Slow' and 'Blind', so cast 'Cure' every other turn so that he doesn't change patterns.


The Azure Dragons take a while to kill, simply because I can't afford to not cast 'Cure' every other turn.


Still, not much to write about.



Red is feeling particularly suicidal this day... another attack in Acre 5!

With Orb of Vulnerability, Undead are susceptible to Forgetfulness. This hero doesn't have fliers and doesn't know 'Teleport' so he's not long for this world.


Just trick him into Resurrecting his Crystal Dragons.


While he's busy helping his Dragons, get rid of the other troops.


We can even use 'Frenzy' on Titans now, dealing over 100k damage! Another easy fight in the end.


Plenty of experience, it really doesn't feel difficult though.









###

The Let's Play now becomes very relaxed because all remaining enemies will get the 'Orb of Vulnerability' treatment. In my first play of this map, I felt overwhelmed by red heroes and it took me a while to get the Black Ball, which led to some interesting fights in some cases.

The only reason why I don't storm through the rest in a few quick updates is because there are many days to be saved by figuring out decent logistics now. A little more patience required until the impending conclusion to this great adventure

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Nikos
Nikos


Hired Hero
posted May 19, 2016 10:53 AM
Edited by Nikos at 10:57, 19 May 2016.

WOW!
Fighting against red heroes with the orb of vulnerability. Not even in my dreams! I hadn't had it back then so things were really tough!

By the way, I got the orb using only vampire lords. The phoenixes were kind enough to sit next to the liches prevending them from shooting as my vampire lords stood there too!

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted May 19, 2016 02:05 PM

Again extremely nice to watch. Very creative work.

I think between the video 321.4 and 321.5 there's missing the part inbetween defeating jumper and ending the day, i.e. moving the army back to Sepello, rehiring Brewster, etc.

Also last time I checked, iIRC, Sphere of Permanency didn't hinder dispelling a forcefield, was this changed in a mod?

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Nikos
Nikos


Hired Hero
posted May 19, 2016 02:34 PM

RoseKavalier, would you consider displaying a fast way to beat the red guys without the ord of vulnerability as I suppose it was Nautilus / Biobob's intention? You are really ingenious and the result would be purely instructive

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RoseKavalier
RoseKavalier


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted May 19, 2016 03:04 PM

OhforfSake said:
Again extremely nice to watch. Very creative work.

I think between the video 321.4 and 321.5 there's missing the part inbetween defeating jumper and ending the day, i.e. moving the army back to Sepello, rehiring Brewster, etc.

Also last time I checked, iIRC, Sphere of Permanency didn't hinder dispelling a forcefield, was this changed in a mod?


Oh my you're right. I merged 2 videos together for 321.4 and I uploaded the wrong one which only has the first half, I'll have to fix this... record again because I deleted them after posting

Regarding the Sphere of Permanence, you may be right I can't remember if the AI is allowed to dispel Forcefield/Quicksand if you use it. I know they will vanish if I use it but the other way around I have yet to observe.

@Nikos
I may do it after the Let's Play is over, any preference? I assume you don't want Melusine/Clackhead/Wanarido which I essentially beat without the orb...

My first time around there wasn't much special, I either defended in town or attacked them in town.

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Star_King
Star_King


Known Hero
posted May 19, 2016 10:23 PM
Edited by Star_King at 22:27, 19 May 2016.

RoseKavalier said:
I'm really not certain was has changed since that previous fight where the AI is now willing to exit to kill weak troops, when I fought Tongue and Isegrim the AIs didn't bother moving


Yeah, I wanted to say something about that when you said this

RoseKavalier said:
zmudziak22 said:
[...]AI won't move from castle if you have weaker shooters.

The difference is important here, so long as AI thinks its shooters are stronger than yours, it sees absolutely no reason to exit the garrison.


that I believe there are more factors than that. I remember when I played "Unleashing the Bloodthirsty SOD v2", when I fought Conflux, even after all AI's shooters were dead/out of shots, I could Resurrect Titans a few times (so my shooters would be stronger than his) and he still wouldn't exit if they were sufficiently weak. But when I fought Dragonmaster, even Resurrecting Titans once caused him to exit, and he had a stronger army than Conflux.

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