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| Thread: I believe it's time to divorce races from towns |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT» |
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted August 02, 2016 08:26 PM |
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I believe it's time to divorce races from towns
a.k.a. "Lowkey ripoff "get inspired" by AoW3 town system but make it less visually cheap"
As those who played AoW3 may know, your towns are defined by two choices: race and class of your hero. As you might have noticed we have been basically stuck with the same towns and lineups since H3. I believe the implementation of a similar system would solve that. Instead of the AoW approach where you select (ie) Julia, the High Elf Archdruid (which makes your race "high elves" and your towns make the rogue-related creatures), you'd outright select during match creation your race and your town style.
Your race determines aesthetics and unit which is shared across all lineups (along probably skills and whatnot but that's not the point of this thread) while the rest of your lineup is defined by the your town choice. Unlike AoW3 creatures wouldnt be "*insert race here* bard" or "*insert race here* death bringer" but unique units visually at the very least (i imagine that for balancing reasons gameplay-wise they'd have to be pretty much the same minus one unique ability for each creature so they arent literally the same)
While we'd go back to something akin to the original style of tiers, since i'm thinking of having 5 types of towns at the very least the ammount of assets each race would require would probably mean we'd have to go down from 7 to 5 creatures per lineup (ending up with 21 creatures per faction) and removing upgrades (kinda like H4)
I more or less envision it like this
Nations: Unit shared across all lineups
Holy Unicorn Empire: Knight (tier 3)
Heresh: Zombie (tier 1)
Irollan: Hunter (tier 2)
Ygg-Chall: Assassin (tier 1)
Sheog: (open for suggestions)
Silver Cities: Disciple (tier 3. I really liked that name change from H7, i feel like mage unit being called mage cheapened both the "mage" heroes and the unit itself)
Town name: Style of gameplay
(tv tropes link for reference
Haven: Balanced
Stronghold: Offensive
Fortress: Deffensive
Academy: Magical (technical-specialist faction)
Dungeon: Subversive (guerrilla-specialist faction )
Now with examples
Unicorn Empire Haven for example would be pretty much our typical heaven:
Peasant
Spearmen
Ballistamen
Knight
Angel
While Unicorn Empire Academy would go for something like:
Devout
Sister
Justicar
Knight
Glory
And Unicorn Empire Stronghold like:
Highlander
Swordman
Javelin Thrower
Knight
Landsketch.
Meanwhile Ygg-Chall haven on the other hand could go like:
Assassin
(new creature)
(new creature)
Lizard Rider
(new creature)
their academy like:
Assassin
(New creature)
Nightmare
Medusa
Shadow Sorceress
Their Dungeon like
Assassin
Stalker
(new creature)
Strider
Faceless
their fortress like
Assassin
Shadow Watcher
Troglodyte
(new creature)
Hydra
and their Stronghold like
Assassin
Skirmisher
Manticore
Minotaur
Black Dragon
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted August 02, 2016 08:53 PM |
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I have to admit, this is a nice suggestion  .
When I read the topic title, I assumed you were going to advocate a design with theme-based towns, which immediately sparked another thought: some factions within Heroes are displaying structured society (Haven, Academy), while others are more feral and unkempt (Stronghold, Rampart) - with that notion, a mix could work.
But I like this idea even more. I'm not sure if it should determine every creature in the line-up, but at least a number of them should. This also means you can have interesting matches between for instance an evil usurpur and a benevolent ruler with the same basic town type, but still a different unit line-up. The first one might support an aggressive playstyle with dirty tricks, while the latter might play defensively and feature a bit more healing and shielding.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 02, 2016 09:01 PM |
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GenyaArikado said:
a.k.a. "Lowkey ripoff "get inspired" by AoW3 town system but make it less visually cheap".
AoW 3 gives you 398 units. If you switch to highest detail and zoom in you'll see that they are everything but cheap. You don't thin k you can have 400 really different 3d units in a game, do you?
I don't think that a Aow 3 rip-off would work for Homm, since no matter how you'd do it, all would mix and merge to half this and half that and lose the special character each town is supposed to have. Since a HoMM game with Necromancy would be bound to fail right from the start, you also have to solve the undead problem first.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 02, 2016 09:40 PM |
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Edited by kiryu133 at 17:30, 03 Aug 2016.
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As if some of us who actually played AoW3 never considered it already.
No, just no. All you have to do with creatures in Heroes is get them to be as unique as possible, mythologically accurate and thematically cohesive enough to be able to associate with one another within line-ups. Copying AoW3 leads to anything but that, it produces replicas divided by race. It also puts more emphasis on the concept of race which I believe to be misplaced in Heroes games, especially in the Ubi era ones.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted August 02, 2016 10:01 PM |
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Better not. I'd prefer something more original than something blatantly copied. I mean if the problem is to have the same units in a certain faction over and over, the problem could be solved by just mixing factions, like that Infernopolis from H4. It just has to make some sense.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted August 02, 2016 10:19 PM |
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Maurice said:
When I read the topic title, I assumed you were going to advocate a design with theme-based towns, which immediately sparked another thought: some factions within Heroes are displaying structured society (Haven, Academy), while others are more feral and unkempt (Stronghold, Rampart) - with that notion, a mix could work.
But I like this idea even more. I'm not sure if it should determine every creature in the line-up, but at least a number of them should. This also means you can have interesting matches between for instance an evil usurpur and a benevolent ruler with the same basic town type, but still a different unit line-up. The first one might support an aggressive playstyle with dirty tricks, while the latter might play defensively and feature a bit more healing and shielding.
I had already thought of something like that before, i think i posted in the H7 topic (ie current dungeon splitting off in Dungeon: dark elf town and Grotto: H3 style with greek mythology units) but doing so gives you just 14 spots which are already kinda taken and leaves little space for something new. Besides from a gameplay persepective its much harder to design and balance because 10-16 14 different experiences than 6-8 ones and spice them up so they arent literally the same but with different paint
JollyJoker said:
GenyaArikado said:
a.k.a. "Lowkey ripoff "get inspired" by AoW3 town system but make it less visually cheap".
AoW 3 gives you 398 units. If you switch to highest detail and zoom in you'll see that they are everything but cheap. You don't thin k you can have 400 really different 3d units in a game, do you?
I don't think that a Aow 3 rip-off would work for Homm, since no matter how you'd do it, all would mix and merge to half this and half that and lose the special character each town is supposed to have. Since a HoMM game with Necromancy would be bound to fail right from the start, you also have to solve the undead problem first.
by "less visually cheap" i meant that instead of having (ie) human/orc/elf warbreed wearing the same outfit we'd have a landsketch for humans, a treant for elves, a colossus for magi, etc. With this systems, towns could keep their "special character" gameplay wise if not visually (because that aspect would be linked to the race).
I'm not asking for 400 different units. 26*6 = 126. Assuming they were super generous with neutrals, we'd rise to 150 tops. If RTSs can handle it, so can a TBS. Yes, we'd end up with iconic creatures separated through the different lineups but some sacrifices are needed (and even then there would be ways to get around it in-game via areas of control and map creature forts and out of game via modding). It would ambitious and hard to do right but that's what the series needs
Undead would just be another race. Perhaps instead of vampires like i initially suggested, skeletons or zombies (i'd prefer zombies but w.e.) their shared unit and make necromancy around them while master level raises lvl 2 creatures too (kinda like H7 but well balanced, i dont really know too much about stats and whatnot which is why im not covering that here) Perhaps make zombies have piss poor stats so even a horde ammounts to nothing to a player but make them have a bonus against non-player aligned creatures so necros dont get wiped in early game.
Stevie said:
LMAO! As if some of us who actually played AoW3 never considered it already.
No, just no. Absolutely snowing atrocious idea. All you have to do with creatures in Heroes is get them to be as unique as possible, mythologically accurate and thematically cohesive enough to be able to associate with one another within line-ups. Copying AoW3 leads to anything but that, it produces replicas divided by race. It also puts more emphasis on the concept of race which I believe to be misplaced in Heroes games, especially in the Ubi era ones.
But hey, best suggestion you had so far. Congratulations!
Like this you'd still be making a baseline unique unit conceptually. The race of your choice would just give decide what visual form does that concept take and one special thematically fitting ability (two for tier 5 creatures and lineup-shared creatures) such as the Medusa stone gaze so they arent absolute replicas concept wise.
It does add further emphasis into races (or nations i should say, it's a more fitting term) but it's the only way i can think were we can: keep the old creatures, keep the ashan creatures, keep the town associated gameplay, add new creatures and keep them manageable-ish and able to be balanced.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 02, 2016 10:32 PM |
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The game is called HEROES of Might and Magic - where are the heroes?
If undead were a RACE there couldn't be human undead or undead humans ... as there couldn't be human dwarves or dwarven humans.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted August 02, 2016 10:49 PM |
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Undead would be a race from a gameplay and selection perspective. From an in-universe they'd still be the random assortment of races they always have been.
Heroes would still be recruited as always. For Heroes with specific creature bonus specs (only true issue here) there are 3 choices:
1- Not have them
2- Make the spec be tied to race+tier instead of specific creatures (can lead to balancing problems and kinda bland though)
3-Make different ones depending of race+town and a- make the game check if there is a fitting town or map creature dwelling for them. If there isnt, disable them from showing up in tavern in that game b- dont do a and let the player ignore them or not as they see fit
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted August 02, 2016 11:10 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 23:12, 02 Aug 2016.
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JollyJoker said:
If undead were a RACE there couldn't be human undead or undead humans ... as there couldn't be human dwarves or dwarven humans.
Necropolis is an oddball in the Town mix as it is. Being dead or undead is a state, not a faction  . But that's just me. In AoW3, each of the races ingame can exist in their live forms as well as an undead form. The live state and undead state both have their benefits and downsides.
Ferrying the concept over to Heroes could then give a morbid form of Town Conversion. When a Necromancer conquers a living Town, it can transform it into a Necropolis, where it can recruit undead based on the original Town inhabitants. In contrast, when a living Hero conquers a Necropolis, he can convert it into a living Town, where the player can then recruit live units based on the undead that could be recruited there.
Or better said, each live Town has an undead counterpart and conversions can occur between the two. At the start of the game, each player selects whether they're a live faction or an undead one.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 02, 2016 11:21 PM |
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Yes, undead can't be a race, and therefore they must be a town, the Necropolis.
Now THAT would mean, though, you had a human Necropolis, a dawrven Necropolis, an Elven Necropolis, a demon necropolis, an Orcish Necropolis.
Now, the problem here is that undead is a state, so a human Necropolis would be undead humans - however, WHICH humans, since we have Stronghold humans, Haven humans, Academy humans ...
OR we would have to have racially separated undead, so in a human Necropolis there would be Skeletons, Zombies, Vampires, Mummies and Death Knights, while in a Dark Eleven Ncropolis we had, err ...
Doesn't work, next idea.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted August 02, 2016 11:31 PM |
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Edited by kiryu133 at 17:30, 03 Aug 2016.
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But whatever, i was prepared for it, which is why i said term "Nation" instead of "Race" would be more fitting (considering the lineups include arent just composed of humans/elves/dark elves/etc)
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted August 03, 2016 12:12 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
Yes, undead can't be a race, and therefore they must be a town, the Necropolis.
Now THAT would mean, though, you had a human Necropolis, a dawrven Necropolis, an Elven Necropolis, a demon necropolis, an Orcish Necropolis.
Correct.
Quote:
Now, the problem here is that undead is a state, so a human Necropolis would be undead humans - however, WHICH humans, since we have Stronghold humans, Haven humans, Academy humans ...
The Town type is underlaying. If it's a Necropolis based on a Stronghold Town, you have Stronghold undead. If it's a Necropolis based on Academy, you have Academy undead, etc ...
Quote:
OR we would have to have racially separated undead, so in a human Necropolis there would be Skeletons, Zombies, Vampires, Mummies and Death Knights, while in a Dark Eleven Ncropolis we had, err ...
Not quite. I could see Liches for instance being part of Haven Necropoli and/or Academy Necropoli (perhaps in slightly different forms, two different Lich types), but less so for other Towns. Basically though, you'd need to design two creature variants for all creatures for each Town type: a live form and an undead form. Some can be the same, for instance Golems are inanimate to begin with and therefore not alive. Some can occur in more than one Town type, like Skeletons and Zombies with only minor differences (for instance, special abilities might differ). Some units aren't suited to be undead, so they'd have to replaced with a suitable variant.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 03, 2016 12:28 AM |
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Why do I even bother?
If Necropolis isn't a race, but a town, we have racial towns: Human Haven, Human Necropolis. In that case, every town type has troops which are available for each race. So Human Haven has human Knight, human Swordman, human priest, and Elven Haven has Elven Knight, Elven priest... so human Necroplois has human Zombies, Elven Zombies, Dwarven Zombies.
A human Zombie is different from an Elfen Zombie how?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 03, 2016 12:44 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 00:45, 03 Aug 2016.
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Please do bother, because you're kinda wrong here. Maurice is right in saying that living / undead is not a race but a biological status. And your example is flawed, this is the proper translation:
livining human priest -> undead human priest
living elven priest -> undead elven priest
And I am giving way too much away from what is actually an idea of mine, so copyrighted right here by moi and also soon™, no promises tho.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted August 03, 2016 12:49 AM |
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Are you part of H7 dev team? You'd fit in perfectly?
You make "undead" a race in selection screen or make your select a "Nation" or "Civilization" instead of a "Race". Solved.
Undead haven
Zombie
Ghost
(something new and ranged)
(something new)
Ghost dragon
Undead fortress
Zombie
Haunted Armor
(something new)
Lamassu
(something new)
Undead stronghold
Zombie
(new)
(new)
Vampire Lord
Grim Reaper
Undead Academy
Zombie
(new)
(new)
Lich
Namtaru
Undead Dungeon
Zombie
Poltergeist
(new)
(new)
(new and void related)
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 03, 2016 01:04 AM |
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Stevie said:
Please do bother, because you're kinda wrong here. Maurice is right in saying that living / undead is not a race but a biological status. And your example is flawed, this is the proper translation:
livining human priest -> undead human priest
living elven priest -> undead elven priest
And I am giving way too much away from what is actually an idea of mine, so copyrighted right here by moi and also soon™, no promises tho.
I fully agree with you, but that would mean Necropolis would simply double the number of available units - and race/town combinations, because you'd have a Human Haven and an undead Human Haven.
But in that case you have THREE defining stas, race, town and, err, hero:
You'd have Human Haven, Necromancer making it an undead human haven, while, umm, Rogue hero would make it a roguish human haven, and in this case we could let race drop completely, because race would deliver only minimal stat differences, while HERO and town type would be the thing to make differences with because town type would deliver different units, while hero would deliver the main characteristic like undead, roguish, umm, oh - we are now at a 100% AoW3 clone ...
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AnkVaati
Famous Hero
Nighonese National Front
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posted August 03, 2016 01:19 AM |
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Edited by kiryu133 at 17:30, 03 Aug 2016.
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Stevie said:
As if some of us who actually played AoW3 never considered it already.
No, just no. All you have to do with creatures in Heroes is get them to be as unique as possible, mythologically accurate and thematically cohesive enough to be able to associate with one another within line-ups. Copying AoW3 leads to anything but that, it produces replicas divided by race. It also puts more emphasis on the concept of race which I believe to be misplaced in Heroes games, especially in the Ubi era ones.
Fully agree. As much as I like AoW, I don't think there should be more focus on race in HoMM, rather much less.
I'm not saying there isn't any potential in the idea though. I've always seen potential in the implementation of neutral factions on the map. Say you aligned with one of these. Depending on your alignment, they could transform into this or that creature. For instance, the genie in the lamp you encounter somewhere could become an efreet if you had a Chaos aligned hero, etc.
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Ank's Old School (kinda) H8 proposal <- best thing evvah, trust me
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted August 03, 2016 04:35 AM |
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Edited by kiryu133 at 17:30, 03 Aug 2016.
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The idea is that the system allows, in the dark elven/sylvan elven factions cases specifically although it could apply to others too, lineups where there only elven unit is the assassin/hunter and the rest are...well...anything else they want so people who want to keep race focus at minimun can do it.
Regarding Necropolis, call me when you stop ignoring the solution that was in the OP in first place...although i'm gonna edit it with the other option
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 03, 2016 06:52 AM |
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The idea is not without merit but I'd be more interested in 2 subfactions for each race. Or failing that, 2-3 alternative unit choices here and there. A mere 7-8 units per lineup is not enough so finding ways to increase the unit pool is important.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted August 03, 2016 08:57 AM |
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Need to clean this when I get home...
I see some merit and i'm certainly not against it though dividing it by race is probably not preferable. In fact, first impression is pretty good but I'll get back later for some real feedback.
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It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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