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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Making Heroes III spell system less bad
Thread: Making Heroes III spell system less bad This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · «PREV
Pollo2002
Pollo2002


Known Hero
posted September 07, 2016 07:31 PM
Edited by Pollo2002 at 19:34, 07 Sep 2016.

Years ago I worked on a big mod to make make a version of heroes 3 specifically thought to be a an interactive multiplayer version of the game.
I did get quite advanced with it and tested it with my friends.
The whole project died because My HD was toasted and I had a backup in megaupload...except megaupload had died 1 month ago and I didnīt backup.
AT the time VCMI was in progress, so I thought "ok this will allow me to do a few things i wantd to do, will wait 1 or 2 years for them to finish that so i can start again with my project"

Anyway Iīm still after all this years want to start the project again, but one thing that stops me is that I would like to solve the spell system. At the time me ERM abilities werenīt good enough to change the spells as I wanted.

My idea at the time was simple, and link the numerical factor of enchantments to spell power. So 10 spell power gives you 10 defense on stoneskin (so to speak).
I wanted actually to link dispel to spell power (so you dispel a number of turns equal to the spell power)
But i would be happy with any method, like the more spell power the bigger the army you can enchant etc.

As a side note I'm unsure what to do , I kind of want to create my mod of heroes 3 and I thikn VCMI will give me the tools i need, but it looks like i may be waiting another 2-4 years to have the capabilities I want.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted September 07, 2016 07:35 PM

Erm has now full spell support -SS receiver. I would say start testing and designing mod, then when VCMI is in playable state (they hate when someone says that, sorry guys ) you can start adding new spells to your construction because this is the main advantage with VCMI: new functional content.
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Pollo2002
Pollo2002


Known Hero
posted September 07, 2016 07:36 PM

You mean era II?
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted September 07, 2016 07:37 PM

Yep.
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Pollo2002
Pollo2002


Known Hero
posted September 07, 2016 08:10 PM

And you say Era is gonna be compatible with VCMI?
i had this idea back then that instead of ERM i will have to do everything on LUA or something.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted September 07, 2016 08:17 PM

Probably ERM, probably json as well, they don't know yet. But the point is testing game play structures as you already have a language allowing that. Once your mod works, translating it from one language to another is only a technical issue. Just my thoughts about. Anyway, for such technical issues, there is the another forum for.

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b0rsuk
b0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted September 07, 2016 09:21 PM

Pollo2002 said:
Years ago I worked on a big mod to make make a
My idea at the time was simple, and link the numerical factor of enchantments to spell power. So 10 spell power gives you 10 defense on stoneskin (so to speak).
I wanted actually to link dispel to spell power (so you dispel a number of turns equal to the spell power)


This method would work for most stat spells, but what about Haste and Slow ? Would it be remotely fair if you made all enemy units speed 1 ? Dispel or die. And with dispel merely reducing the number of turns...

* * *

Another wart of the spell system is related to Earth Magic, Fire Magic, Water Magic, and Air Magic. Prior to Heroes3 HOMM magic system was already notorious for feeling like a roulette on a bad day. You may or may not get good spells. But spell schools magnified the problem. Even if you fix the system by balancing individual spells, you may still not get the spells for the magic you chose. It's a common strategy to build dwellings first, and by that time you may already be commited to a specific school or two.

Conflux has the Magic University where you can learn any magic school for 2000 gold, but what about everyone else ??

The simplest way to solve the problem would be to nuke those skills from the orbit. They're such a source of problems! But maybe the skill choice system could be tweaked. For example, on a level up you choose between 2 skills, but may also "save an upgrade for later".

Another option could be some form of limited respec system. Say, at level 2 Magic Guild you could pay to replace (or erase) one of your skills with Fire/Air/Water/Earth.

Really, I think the whole idea of shoehorning spells into Fire/Water/Earth/Air was DUMB.

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Pollo2002
Pollo2002


Known Hero
posted September 10, 2016 01:28 PM

Well you can make the multiplier really high for Slow, like 1+(X/3)


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b0rsuk
b0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted September 12, 2016 12:40 AM

Hey, I just came up with idea for balancing Haste/Slow. Like many good ideas, it comes from Heroes of Might and Magic IV:

Separate movement SPEED and INITIATIVE.
That way it's possible to have low level Haste and Slow spells, even mass haste and slow. They would only affect movement speed. For initiative, you would need higher level spell(s).

Default initiative stat for each creature would be its current Speed value. Similar how it was done with Ranged Defense in HOMM4. Only a few creatures like Bone Dragons had ranged defense different from normal defense.

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b0rsuk
b0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted September 12, 2016 02:11 PM
Edited by b0rsuk at 14:11, 12 Sep 2016.

Balance changes

Haste - changes movement speed only, not initiative. It can stay at level 1. (Either this or single target version is level 1, and mass version is level spell 3).

Slow - changes movement speed only, not initiative. (Either this or split into single target level 1 version and mass version at level 3-4).

Mirth - raises Initiative of stack(s). This would justify why it's level 3.

Sorrow - lowers Initiative of stack(s). This would justify level 4.

View Air - reveals location of all CLAIMED artifacts. Heroes carrying more and more powerful artifacts would have darker color.

Air Shield - dropped to level 1. Shooting is optional. Every shooter can be engaged in melee...

Shield - raised to level 2 or 3. Most units are melee and everyone is engaged in melee sooner except vs neutrals.

Scuttle Boat - deals damage to nearby enemy boats based on Spell Power. Cast once per day.

Water Walk - replaced with Fast (dis)Embark. When you cast it, you no longer have embark/disembark penalty.

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Pollo2002
Pollo2002


Known Hero
posted September 12, 2016 03:25 PM

I always thought initiative and speed should be separated, in fact I would be ok to be it very simple , basically higher tier have higher initiative than lower tier. Though I guess I would be ok with no initiative at all and just turns go from attack er to defender, from 1st spot to 7th spot.
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