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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Rethinking secondary skills
Thread: Rethinking secondary skills
b0rsuk
b0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted September 17, 2016 07:48 AM
Edited by b0rsuk at 07:51, 17 Sep 2016.

Rethinking secondary skills

First, a question. Should skills good only on secondary heroes exist ?

I'm talking about skills like Scouting, perhaps Scholar (although you can use it in reverse: LEARNING spells from other heroes, saving you movement points), Estates. Defending these skills in current state by saying they're good for secondary heroes seems Texas Sharpshooter fallacy to me. You shoot a barn first and then paint a bullseye around the impact point.


Eagle Eye: A problem with this skill is it assumes inferiority of your opponent. To get any mileage out of it, your opponent must let you beat him. At that point, you're winning anyway. You could say it's okay for campaign but I'd rather have better AI in campaign!

Suggestion a) make spell stealing take effect BEFORE the end of battle. This way it no longer requires your opponent to be inferior.
Suggestion b) make it BLOCK enemy spell once it cast, so a given spell can only be cast once if it triggers.
Suggestion c) make Eagle Eye allow looking into enemy hero's spellbook. Basic would reveal 25% of his spells (the rest show up as closed scrolls), advanced - 50%, expert - 80% of spells.

I'm not saying ALL of these would should be implemented. All three improve the skill as Magic vs Magic tool.

Estates - make the effect scale with hero's level as well as Basic/Advanced/Expert. Suddenly people will want to have it on their main hero.

First Aid, Ballistics, Artillery - MERGE these skills. Ballista can be made to scale (damage, HP) with hero's level. First Aid Tent is just hopeless unless it starts resurrecting or curing.

Mysticism - Like Eagle Eye, it seems to assume your enemies are inferior and will let you bash them. Unless you use the extra MP points against neutrals, but there aren't too many adventure spells.
It just needs to replenish more MP.


Leadership
Basic - you get early warning about morale when it's the turn of your high morale unit.
Advanced - when the round starts, you see which your units will get morale this round.
Expert - like Advanded, but you see enemy morale too.

Learning - the formula is needlesly convoluted. Why not just make it LevelUP at basic, LEvelUP at Advanced, LevelUp at Expert. So practically free 3 stat points early on, but you max out earlier. That wouldn't make the skill less boring, though.

Diplomacy - the skill could be nerfed by making the creatures appear in your city instead of snowballing army.

Pathfinding, Navigation - not offered on maps with no accessible rough/water. Heroes which start with it get a reroll.

Resistance - rename to Antimagic Aura, make it affect enemy units too.

Wisdom
Change shrines. Worst shrine - level2 spell. Middle shrine: level3 spell. Top shrine: level4 spell. And maybe make Wisdom required to learn level2 spells.

That would make heroes starting with Advanced Wisdom good for something.

Scouting - add Fog of War

Tactics adds Zones of Control to battle. Units passing through zones of control suffer a retaliation.


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Dyekrai
Dyekrai

Tavern Dweller
posted September 17, 2016 08:31 AM

b0rsuk said:
Should skills good only on secondary heroes exist ?






......???

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted September 17, 2016 11:18 AM

b0rsuk said:
First, a question. Should skills good only on secondary heroes exist ?


In my opinion, yes, it diversifies the game to have heroes with different roles and therefore a need for different sec. skills. But calling it sec. heroes may give the wrong impression, while the main hero is usually thought as the hero who'll do the important battles and get the important arts, spells, stats boost, etc. sec. heroes could potentially be many vastly different heroes all providing assets that makes your kingdom and conquering run smoothly.

b0rsuk said:
To get any mileage out of [Eagle Eye], your opponent must let you beat him.

Don't you keep the spells learned if you run away? I'd like EE to have 100% to steal the spell, mainly used for maps where hit&run is allowed, because you fire a heavy spell on your opponent and then retreats be prepared for your opponent also being able to use this spell now. Also I don't know if it's the case already, but I'd also like the spell to be stolen if resisted.

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b0rsuk
b0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted September 17, 2016 12:09 PM

OhforfSake said:
b0rsuk said:
First, a question. Should skills good only on secondary heroes exist ?


In my opinion, yes, it diversifies the game to have heroes with different roles and therefore a need for different sec. skills.

What if they're offered to your main batle hero ? Is that still fun ?

Quote:
Don't you keep the spells learned if you run away?

I think you do, but HOMM doesn't support comebacks very well, by design. Only the winner gets experience.

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frostymuaddib
frostymuaddib


Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
posted September 17, 2016 12:28 PM

b0rsuk said:

What if they're offered to your main batle hero ? Is that still fun ?


IMO, essential part of HoMM was to deal with skills that may not fit your main hero. So if they get offered to your main, you can change your plans accordingly.

The worst change in H6, imo, was skill system where you can pick the skills you want: so you end up with same build over and over again. This way, you have diversity.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted September 17, 2016 12:35 PM

Exactly, hence the urge to quick explore the map, looking for huts and universities, wisely choose your class according on your style and skills you use, plan your level up accordingly to fixed patterns, as wisdom and magic skills offered at precise levels, and all this while having a little part of surprise and unknown, which teases you to try again and again and seek for the perfect build.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted September 17, 2016 01:22 PM
Edited by artu at 13:23, 17 Sep 2016.

Salamandre said:
Exactly, hence the urge to quick explore the map, looking for huts and universities, wisely choose your class according on your style and skills you use, plan your level up accordingly to fixed patterns, as wisdom and magic skills offered at precise levels, and all this while having a little part of surprise and unknown, which teases you to try again and again and seek for the perfect build.

I mainly agree with this, I wouldnt want to it to be like in H6. But it's also frustrating when a near petferct hero gets Learning or Navigation and you're stuck with it. So, WoG's Market of Time was a big improvement. A building, which can be designed as hard to come by, that lets you forget skills for a price.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted September 17, 2016 03:49 PM

Agree, but the fact that you know there is a way to correct somehow takes away the thrill. And finally you end with H6 style, because when there is a way to fix one unwanted skill, it means you can fix all unwanted skills.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted September 17, 2016 03:51 PM

It takes time and effort though, so getting an unwanted skill still hurts.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted September 17, 2016 03:54 PM

Is not that absolute, I think. Usually people take might heroes, and those will get the natural fighting skills, offense, armorer and archery. They will get wisdom and a magic school, as well as logistic. From here, if you get eagle eye and not leadership, or learning and not pathfinding is not such a game break.

But if you choose a magic hero, indeed the level path can offer many unnecessary skills and not all necessary skills.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted September 17, 2016 04:01 PM
Edited by artu at 16:11, 17 Sep 2016.

Well, it's not about game break to me, I like "creating the perfect hero" process itself, even if it's already a guarantee win. You can say game is about making heros to me even more than fighting with them. So when it happens, it annoys me like a moustache on my Mona Lisa.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted September 17, 2016 04:10 PM

I think is more about what you play, multi or solo. In general solo games are longer and more rewarding, less frustrating and you can reload, so is natural to seek the perfect hero. When you play multi you know that you have little chances that everything goes like on paper so you have to relativize and get the best from what you get.

I recall one of my first games online, recruited Solmyr and upgraded him quite fast, but this stupid wizard got offered only crap like eagle eye and mysticism then only knowledge for 10 levels consecutive. I got all great combat spells but they made little effect, and even resurrect was ridiculous, as in multiplayer you don't have the chances to cast a lot, the battle is done in a few turns. And that was my last time I recruited a magic hero, as it was very disappointing how RNG screwed him, despite my efforts.
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b0rsuk
b0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted September 18, 2016 10:26 AM

I just checked out and apparently Estates in Heroes IV grants bonus gold per level. Also, Diplomacy has a hit points cap that also grows with hero level.

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phe
phe


Famous Hero
Life and Freedom
posted September 18, 2016 01:46 PM

If we divide spells into single/mass versions Scholar could grant mass version to user of single target version

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