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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: Town Analysis. Major imbalance.
Thread: Town Analysis. Major imbalance. This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · «PREV
Midler
Midler


Hired Hero
High Priestess Elf Queen
posted April 23, 2002 10:50 PM

Hmm... well Columbus, I guess u've explained everything I said a whole lot better.
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"I am light. I am dark. I must give my life to serve; not even death can release me." -Selenia, Dark Angel

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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted April 24, 2002 09:46 AM

Quote:
Jenova, computer strategy games always aim for balance. Read articles by game designers and they will stress balance as one of their prime considerations. What they mean is, as Midler says, that they allow different elements to be out of synch but that viewed as a whole the towns are equally good. Think of a scales. On one side you have an 80g weight and a 20g weight, on the other you have 2 50g weights. Balanced, but not mirrored


Yeah I know, but whether you view it as balanced or not is debateable. Towns that are weak in one area usually are stronger in another to make up for it, as has always been the case in HOMM games. Mirrored sides are only useful in RTS. Balance is hard to judge. I don't think any game is ever exactly 100.00% balanced. You can make up for HOMM4's imbalances with strategic play.
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted April 24, 2002 12:30 PM

My vocabulary:

1) Fliers

A creature with the ability "Flying".

(And I believe it's a bad idea to build in something more complex to this simple and straight-forward explanation.)

I look through the HoMM IV pdf manual for the word "flier" and found no match. The word "Fly" was used, and then in the above meaning. (Mainly in conjunction with explanations of various spells.)

About who walks forward in Academy... Well... I'd say noone walks forwards. Academy should be able to outgun any other town if they so desire. (Having ranged units in level 1, 2, 3 and 4. Two of these deal damage magically and the other two physically.) And failing this Order Magic has a lot of usable spells concerning shooters. If Academy opts to use walkers for some level then I guess their main use is to protect your own ranged units.

2) Cheap.

When used for a creature this means that the creature is inexpensive considering what it does.

When used for a strategy it has the meaning mentioned in Columbus's post.

If you feel 'breeding' Vampires are cheap then I agree in the sense that the strategy is one of the better and requires little thought on behalf of the player.

But then I'd say that developing a pure combat hero is also similar. If you specialize in combat then your hero quickly becomes as devastating (and IMO as boring) as the Vampires the necromancer has. And once you get Grand Master Combat, Melee and Archery, those vampires won't do all that much damage to the hero if the two faces each other.
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Columbus
Columbus


Hired Hero
posted April 24, 2002 02:40 PM

Thanks Midler, kind words

Quote:
I don't think any game is ever exactly 100.00% balanced. You can make up for HOMM4's imbalances with strategic play.


Jenova, you're right even in Chess white has an advantage. In HoMM factors like going first, knowledge of the map and so on come in to it. I think the concern here is not that the balance should be perfect but that it should be roughly right

Personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable with the Death alignment in a multiplayer game online. If I take Death and go for the Day 2 Vampire, charge for enemy castle tactic it would feel to me unfair. Almost but not quite like cheating. I would feel like I'm not encouraging the other person to want to play the game again

Equally I wouldn't feel great about playing with a stranger and choosing another town if my opponent picks Death. It would spoil my fun to spend 4-5 hours online and then get kicked in without having much of a chance.

That's my issue with it, that it spoils the fun

Quote:
My vocabulary:

1) Fliers

A creature with the ability "Flying".

(And I believe it's a bad idea to build in something more complex to this simple and straight-forward explanation.)


Djive, you're probably right ;-)

Quote:
About who walks forward in Academy... Well... I'd say noone walks forwards.


OK, here's the situation:
You have 50 dwarves, 50 halfings, 20 mages and 5 genies
Against you are 30 elves
It's for a goldmine, so you really want to fight the battle

Now do you see why fliers are missed?

For 5 vampires that would be an easy fight

Quote:
2) Cheap.

If you feel 'breeding' Vampires are cheap then I agree in the sense that the strategy is one of the better and requires little thought on behalf of the player.


OK, that seems fair, cheap can mean tacky and lazy but you win on the fliers. One each ;-)

Quote:

But then I'd say that developing a pure combat hero is also similar. If you specialize in combat then your hero quickly becomes as devastating (and IMO as boring) as the Vampires the necromancer has. And once you get Grand Master Combat, Melee and Archery, those vampires won't do all that much damage to the hero if the two faces each other.


It WOULD be an interesting match though. I'll give you a game online when the patch comes or hotseat if you're near London, UK :-)

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted April 24, 2002 05:35 PM

"Equally I wouldn't feel great about playing with a stranger and choosing another town if my opponent picks Death. It would spoil my fun to spend 4-5 hours online and then get kicked in without having much of a chance."

Mind you it's probably not the Vampire structure which is imbalanced or the Vampire by itself. It's the Necromancy skill at GM.

Quote:
About who walks forward in Academy... Well... I'd say noone walks forwards.


"OK, here's the situation:
You have 50 dwarves, 50 halfings, 20 mages and 5 genies
Against you are 30 elves
It's for a goldmine, so you really want to fight the battle."

You're forgetting the Hero. You won't be fighting this fight without the Hero since without a Hero you won't be able to claim the Gold Mine for yourself anyway.

I don't think you miss fliers. You miss a tank unit that can cross the battlefield quickly. Order Magic provides you with Teleport, and this spell is not useful in this case simply because you have no Gold Golems, Nagas or Dragon Golems. You could use it on the dwarves though and that would limit the losses a bit. However, you could make good use of Forgetfulness in this case.

Also beware that not many fliers would reach the opponents line in the first round. So regardless of town you'll likely face one round of fire.

"For 5 vampires that would be an easy fight"

Unless the Elves gets a Morale boost for round 2. Then you may actually lose a vampire if you're unlucky. The Vampires will win in any case though. The Academy army will also win but will also suffer losses.

Do note that a Necropolis army of similar composition with 2 Vampires, 20 Ghosts/Cerberi and 50 Imps & Skeletons would also have taken considerable losses.

"It WOULD be an interesting match though. I'll give you a game online when the patch comes or hotseat if you're near London, UK :-)"

Perhaps, but as I said I find "pure" Combat a bit boring to develope so in practise I never do.
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mtkafka
mtkafka

Tavern Dweller
posted April 25, 2002 01:24 PM

I don't know, but I've concentrated mainly playing nature and order and stronghold towns against undead... I find undead sorta weak in the first month.  Vampire are tough, but they need a high level hero to back them up it seems.  The little I've played of the undead, they really lack the units up to the Vampire, except maybe the cerbrus.  Otherwise the lvl 1 and 2 units in the dead town are pretty weak imo.

I'm surprised that the more I play the game, there is an internal balance in the game.  There's a few units I can see being abused (like Vamps) but the whole town and stack combinations and hero combinations have to be considered before crying "imblance"!  I'd say the game is MORE balanced overall than Heroes 3 was at release, imo.  Though I still havent played the Chaos and Death towns much.

Btw, if having the chance, I'd choose a big stack of cyclops over vamps most of the time! Also, the stack makeup is so much more important in this game than previous heroes games.  I like it alot!

etc
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halfling
halfling

Tavern Dweller
posted April 25, 2002 02:23 PM

Personnaly I think that the whole idea of equal creatures is a little stupid. Of course one town shouldn't be stronger than another, but I think that the game would be more fun to me if a creature's strength wouldn't depend on other same level creatures.
Like in heroes 3 where most level 7 creatures are 200-300 hp. What if we would have a real Titan with 500 hp.? But you'll get only one in a week, and castles gets 2 angels of 250 hp. (something like that) That would add a little 'realism' to the game to me. (sorry for getting off-topic )
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Columbus
Columbus


Hired Hero
posted April 25, 2002 02:50 PM

Quote:
I don't think you miss fliers. You miss a tank unit that can cross the battlefield quickly.

he he, that sounds like a flier to me ;-)
but I've already conceded that the use of the word is best kept literal, I think everyone's got the point

good point about the spells but a) you don't always get the specific spell you want and b) it is still a disadvantage in that you have to do something with your hero's action specifically to compensate for a weakness in you line-up

Djive, you must have had all-out shooting matches if you play Order a lot when you haven't had useful options. Surely? I know I have, mainly in the early game

Quote:
Do note that a Necropolis army of similar composition with 2 Vampires, 20 Ghosts/Cerberi and 50 Imps & Skeletons would also have taken considerable losses.


No, this I don't accept

Round 1 Vampires fly forward, maybe losing 1 vamp
ghosts and imps defend
Round 2 remaining vampire attacks elves (probably a stack of 10) and regenerates some life both on attack and when it does its pathetic dagger attack
etc
etc
end of fight - vampires have grown back to 2 again, no casualties suffered

Try it

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Thunder
Thunder


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted April 25, 2002 03:02 PM

Why teleport grunt to enemy when you can teleport the enemy to the grunt?

I agree that Necromancy is too powerful. Either it or the Vampires should be toned down. And how you build Vampires on the day 2? Doesn't Estate require Undead Transformer?
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Flashman
Flashman


Adventuring Hero
posted April 25, 2002 03:07 PM

That depends on the scenario, some towns in some scenaries start out with a level 2 dwelling.

/Flash

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted April 25, 2002 04:32 PM

"he he, that sounds like a flier to me ;-)"

Well fast is not a synonym to a flier. Though most fliers are fast. Still unless you get a movement boost (in combat) the fliers won't reach the front enemy-line.

The Dragon Golem will reach the enemy in two rounds unless you're very unlucky with the placing of obstacles. And that is the same round a flier will reach them.

For the lower level spells you're almost guranteed to have some useful spell. The low level hero in this combat would probably choose between magic fist/ice bolt to take out a few elves and the listed spells.

I don't think Academy's line up is weak. You want the units at a distance. Elves suffers distance penalty whereas the mage and genies and hero will do normal damage for their spells.

I've played order very little myself.


"No, this I don't accept"

Round 1 Vampires fly forward, maybe losing 1 vamp
ghosts and imps defend

=> The Elves will fire at the Imps. You will lose quite a lot of them.

Round 2 remaining vampire attacks elves (probably a stack of 10) and regenerates some life both on attack and when it does its pathetic dagger attack

=> Elves will NOT attack Vampires in melee. Instead they move away. Do not feed the Vampires unnecessarily.

=> Remaining Elves fire at your Imps.


=> You may try attacking ONLY with the Vampires. In this case I believe you'll place the outcome of the combat on the assumption that none of the Elf stacks gets good morale. If they do, they'll likely kill 1 of the 2 Vampires and Elves will likely win the combat. (If any of the Elves gets good morale in round 1, they should wait and fire only after the enemy has moved.)

=> Most important: Do not attack in Melee. The Vampires will gain more health than the damage you inflict.
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Flashman
Flashman


Adventuring Hero
posted April 25, 2002 05:37 PM

Djive I don't if your AI is different from mine but my AI will shoot at the closest enemy 99% of the time which means it will hit the vamps, and it won't move its shooters either it will attack.

/Flash

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Holger
Holger


Adventuring Hero
King of Silence
posted April 25, 2002 07:53 PM

Quote:
But then I'd say that developing a pure combat hero is also similar. If you specialize in combat then your hero quickly becomes as devastating (and IMO as boring) as the Vampires the necromancer has. And once you get Grand Master Combat, Melee and Archery, those vampires won't do all that much damage to the hero if the two faces each other.


I did some testing:
Hero: no artifacts, GM Combat, Melee and Archery vs Vampires (no hero support).
11 Vampires is an easy game for the Hero.
12 A little advantage for the Vamps.
13 Hero gets crunched every time!

Then I gave the hero some Potions of Healing, that made him eat 13 Vamps - but loose to 14 every time.

Yours,

Holger

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted April 25, 2002 08:00 PM

Quote:
Djive I don't if your AI is different from mine but my AI will shoot at the closest enemy 99% of the time which means it will hit the vamps, and it won't move its shooters either it will attack.

/Flash


You could ask that. I tested this several times.

30 elves divided into 3 stacks against 2 Vampires, 20 cerberi, 50 Skeletons and 50 Imps.

If I wait with Vampires, then almost all attacks are on the Imps. Sometimes they will fire at the Cerberi.

If I move Vampires forward then elves will fire at them. But: 2 Vampires is not enough against 30 elves in the case where the elves can shoot without range penalty the first time. The elves will vanquish the Vampires.

You're right about the Ai not moving shooters. If it was a human opponent that would happen, but the Ai doen't do that.

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