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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: France introduces opt-out policy on organ donation
Thread: France introduces opt-out policy on organ donation This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · «PREV
artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted January 04, 2017 11:16 AM

That is rather about his first objection and as I said, if you suspect in some cases doctors will be more motivated to pull the plug on you, consciously or subconsciously, you are free to fill a form and be a non-donator. I think such cases would be rare though, both medically (usually, if you are terminal, it's crystal clear that you won't make it) and in terms of doctor behavior, most will be careful not to make such arguable decisions and take their oath seriously.
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you guys are after some sort of systemized system - tsar

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted January 04, 2017 11:24 AM

artu said:
usually, if you are terminal, it's crystal clear that you won't make it


That is an example of the kind of mind set I am uncomfortable with, I hope you don't mind me saying.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted January 04, 2017 11:24 AM

As long as the long arm of the pharmaceutical industry reaches out to doctors, I don't have much trust in them, aid of Hypocrates or not. Being a diabetic, I've seen first-hand how doctors can be influenced by commercial incentives.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted January 04, 2017 11:30 AM

OhforfSake said:
artu said:
usually, if you are terminal, it's crystal clear that you won't make it


That is an example of the kind of mind set I am uncomfortable with, I hope you don't mind me saying.

Of course not, why should I. I'm talking about brain dead patients who only keep on breathing because of artificial life support. How are you not comfortable with it?

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


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Initiate
posted January 04, 2017 11:33 AM
Edited by OhforfSake at 11:33, 04 Jan 2017.

I was afraid you'd tell me to grow up or something like that.

I'm not comfortable with it, because I am of the belief that everything should be done to save someone no matter how unlikely and how costly, which I am convinced is a belief that does not fit with how hospitals works in reality, and also a belief I don't think many holds or understands (or respects.., at least when I spoke about it with friends in real life they could get upset with me).

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted January 04, 2017 11:41 AM

Well, I'm no doctor but as far as I know, when you are brain dead, as the title clearly suggests, your brain no longer operates your organs, it does not send "the commands" to your organs to execute their functions, the only reason you keep on "living" is because the support machines become substitutes for such functions, they give you oxygen for example, you no longer inhale it yourself and you will never be able to. I don't think it's a condition that can be reversed, because the brain is gone.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted January 04, 2017 12:05 PM

Then it comes down to the definition of "brain dead". How can you be 100% that it's the case?

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Stevie
Stevie


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posted January 04, 2017 12:07 PM
Edited by Stevie at 12:08, 04 Jan 2017.

Maurice said:
As long as the long arm of the pharmaceutical industry reaches out to doctors, I don't have much trust in them, aid of Hypocrates or not. Being a diabetic, I've seen first-hand how doctors can be influenced by commercial incentives.


I absolutely agree with you on that one and would argue that in poverty stricken countries like mine the situation's even worse. Public healthcare here is bottom tier, underfunded, with decades old equipment and hospitals, abiding by an unspoken pay-to-live rule and I'm convinced the doctors would sellout in any way possible to make an extra penny. In fact there's been so many cases of malpractice and corruption on the news lately that the Hippocratic oath appears as an afterthought at best.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted January 04, 2017 12:08 PM
Edited by artu at 12:09, 04 Jan 2017.

Maurice said:
Then it comes down to the definition of "brain dead". How can you be 100% that it's the case?

Brain Death:

Brain death is the complete and irreversible loss of brain function (including involuntary activity necessary to sustain life).
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you guys are after some sort of systemized system - tsar

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted January 04, 2017 12:13 PM

Maurice said:
As long as the long arm of the pharmaceutical industry reaches out to doctors, I don't have much trust in them, aid of Hypocrates or not. Being a diabetic, I've seen first-hand how doctors can be influenced by commercial incentives.


That is sadly true, however not all doctors are corrupted and I've met a few for whom the Hypocrates aid is sacred (did I use the "whom" right here btw? I never know) and are particularly disgusted with the pharmaceutical business, but you have to look out for them or be lucky, once you find one, keep him as your personal doctor whenever you need assistance, no more random visits. Where to look out for them you may ask, in my case around 6 or 7 years ago I had some health problems and I could meet a fantastic one in a museum, for some exhibition about ancient medicine, he was freely giving tours and liked to stick around answering questions or just chatting at the end. I know it's a bit of a random advice, but is the best I can give (to anyone), from my experience it seems to me the better odds to find those with integrity are in intellectual places, such as conferences on the subject or as in my case at an exhibition.
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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted January 04, 2017 12:27 PM

artu said:
Maurice said:
Then it comes down to the definition of "brain dead". How can you be 100% that it's the case?

Brain Death:

Brain death is the complete and irreversible loss of brain function (including involuntary activity necessary to sustain life).


That's not what I meant . I understand the principle of brain dead being the point that the brain no longer controls the body or gives off any electrical pulses. What I meant was what it means in practice. Someone has to pass judgment, based on whatever measurements that person made, that this is indeed the irriversible situation.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted January 04, 2017 12:28 PM
Edited by artu at 12:50, 04 Jan 2017.

It's also important to remember that being corrupted on a level to inscribe some overpriced medicine or go along with some questionable hospital policy and being corrupted enough to practically kill someone are different things.

For instance, a significant portion of cops can be okay with looking the other way when it comes to a night club with poker games (illegal gambling) or an organization that sells bootleg DVD's, so they can take a bribe and just let them be. However, many less will be okay with putting a murder frame on an innocent person.

I think, rather than corruption, "the God syndrome" that doctors are accused of regularly can kick in sometimes, if by pulling the plug on a 76 year old,  they are in a position to save two young people, they can think of it as "the greater good." But such decisions are not determined by an individual doctor alone and in such cases, the professional ethics and the oath would do their part.
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you guys are after some sort of systemized system - tsar

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Geny
Geny


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Elvin's backside
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posted January 04, 2017 05:28 PM

Organ donation (Because someone had to)

I'm an organ donor myself and I suppose its okay if this becomes a default, as long as the alternative is easily presented and well-known. Meaning that at a certain age everyone should be explained that they are donating and that they can opt out and how they can do that.
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tSar-Ivor
tSar-Ivor


Legendary Hero
A - Ω
posted January 04, 2017 06:09 PM

Oh god that takes me back ^_^. But it says in the event of death. Nobody's who ever had their liver taken out by us has survived!
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