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Heroes Community > Heroes 7 - Falcon's Last Flight > Thread: Ideas to improve HOMM
Thread: Ideas to improve HOMM This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Laz3456
Laz3456


Hired Hero
posted January 18, 2017 12:27 PM

Ideas to improve HOMM

So I have been away from Heroes for five years, having played V and enjoyed it until an upgrade to win 7 64bit and the purchase of Fallout New Vegas cut its playing life unusually short.
I have now returned to the franchise and brought a copy of HOMM7 which despite its flaws (the outstanding bugs have been gone over enough for me to not need to repeat them here) I am quite enjoying playing it.

After some thought it seems nostalgia is playing a huge part in that enjoyment and when I step back I realise that very little has changed in terms of game play and the franchise is feeling very ‘stayed’. To me it seems so little has changed as part of the H3, H5 and H7 progression that while this is nice it is also becoming a bit stagnant.

So think there are some areas of improvement that would breathe new life into the franchise and in my opinion modernise some of the game play.

Please bear in mind I am a XL random map kind of player and do not play the Heroes campaigns.

- Diplomacy: diplomacy between players really needs to be developed as we are still stuck with fixed teams with no way to affect the dynamic of a scenario. Games like Civilisations, Galactic Empires and Endless Space have had these for ages.
- Minor/side quests: both Endless Space 2 and Star point Gemini do this very well giving bonus rewards for completing them or allowing them to be ignored.
- Resources: Move resources to investigable locations such as caves, ruins, woods, lakes and mountains instead of just lying randomly on the ground. So for example you come across a cave on the campaign map and can send a party of adventures (from a limited stock in the heroes inventory) to investigate a curious location which can either turn up resources, treasure, a battle or the mysterious disappearance of the band.
- Battle map: It may be just me but I am amazed that after two decades these are still so small with only the odd hard stop obstacle. Even after playing heroes 2 I was imagining at least having hills that could provide a defensive bonus but after playing the Total War series there is so much more that can be done in this area. For example what about areas of long grass that units can be hidden in to ambush, forests that force flying creature to land in order to attack a unit in and that give a defence bonus, patches of boggy ground that slows down land units, slopes that increase a land units attack and cliff edges / rivers that can be used to create choke points on the battle map. The way unit stacks could be developed further with bigger battle maps so you can have multiple stacks of the same kind of unit without restricting the types of units you deploy. So instead of having a stack of 300 low level creatures these are six stacks of 50 that will lead to greater tactical flexibility. This would need a revision of the retaliation rules to something like different creatures get a certain number of retaliations rather than just one or unlimited.
- Random events: Such as floods, hurricanes, and earthquakes that cause temporary changes to the campaign map and decisions such as whether or not to allow a migrating tribe to settle in your lands which could result in a new recruitment structure or the destruction of a resource / structure.

The above I think could work well for random map games but would need more thought to work into the campaign structure.

So what does the community think of these and what other suggestions are out there to move the franchise forward?

Cheers,


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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted January 18, 2017 01:26 PM

Good ideas, though the battlemap might be a little tricky.

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Brukernavn
Brukernavn

Hero of Order
posted January 18, 2017 01:31 PM

Laz3456 said:

- Diplomacy: diplomacy between players really needs to be developed as we are still stuck with fixed teams with no way to affect the dynamic of a scenario. Games like Civilisations, Galactic Empires and Endless Space have had these for ages.

I think an expanded use of diplomacy between factions is more suited to 4X games than for Heroes. You have it in AoW3, and there I think it fits well.

Laz3456 said:

- Minor/side quests: both Endless Space 2 and Star point Gemini do this very well giving bonus rewards for completing them or allowing them to be ignored.

This would be difficult to implement well on random maps, but it has already been used to a larger extent in the campaigns. Personally I don't like back tracking, and would prefer rewards to be directly connected to being the first to explore an area, beating a tough neutral stack etc.

I would be open to bonuses given on a kingdom level when reaching certain milestones, like how the marketplace prices are scaled with increasing number of towns.

Laz3456 said:

- Resources: Move resources to investigable locations such as caves, ruins, woods, lakes and mountains instead of just lying randomly on the ground. So for example you come across a cave on the campaign map and can send a party of adventures (from a limited stock in the heroes inventory) to investigate a curious location which can either turn up resources, treasure, a battle or the mysterious disappearance of the band.

More variety on the adventure map is always a good thing. I know though with pandoras box most players will just load the game if it turnes out to be something bad, but restricting the number of stacks/creatures you can bring could be interesting.

Laz3456 said:

- Battle map: It may be just me but I am amazed that after two decades these are still so small with only the odd hard stop obstacle. Even after playing heroes 2 I was imagining at least having hills that could provide a defensive bonus but after playing the Total War series there is so much more that can be done in this area. For example what about areas of long grass that units can be hidden in to ambush, forests that force flying creature to land in order to attack a unit in and that give a defence bonus, patches of boggy ground that slows down land units, slopes that increase a land units attack and cliff edges / rivers that can be used to create choke points on the battle map. The way unit stacks could be developed further with bigger battle maps so you can have multiple stacks of the same kind of unit without restricting the types of units you deploy. So instead of having a stack of 300 low level creatures these are six stacks of 50 that will lead to greater tactical flexibility. This would need a revision of the retaliation rules to something like different creatures get a certain number of retaliations rather than just one or unlimited.

It's tricky to balance battle map variety with battle duration. Smaller combat area (usually) means quicker combats, but it's too small if the majority of your units can reach the other side in the first move. In H6 battles lasted for too long because of strong cores and heal with resurrection. But I agree that the battle map has a lot of potential in Heroes, especially with terrain elements and objects.

Laz3456 said:

- Random events: Such as floods, hurricanes, and earthquakes that cause temporary changes to the campaign map and decisions such as whether or not to allow a migrating tribe to settle in your lands which could result in a new recruitment structure or the destruction of a resource / structure.

Also this has been included to some degree in the campaigns. For random maps it could be implemented as a "week of something", but with limited effects. I don't want random events to make or break my game, but they can sure help to spice things up.

Laz3456 said:

The above I think could work well for random map games but would need more thought to work into the campaign structure.

So what does the community think of these and what other suggestions are out there to move the franchise forward?

Cheers,


Always good with improvement suggestions, and many of these were suggested in some form when H7 was developed. Unfortunenatly since support of the game has ended, we can't hope for them to be implemented officially, and I don't know how much functionality can be modded.

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EnergyZ
EnergyZ


Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
posted January 18, 2017 01:35 PM

I'd say what can be added is to have four heroes battle at once, like a tag battle. This is basically added in Heroes Online, but why not add it to the base games?
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Antalyan
Antalyan


Promising
Famous Hero
H7 Forever
posted January 18, 2017 06:02 PM

Laz3456 said:

- Battle map: It may be just me but I am amazed that after two decades these are still so small with only the odd hard stop obstacle. Even after playing heroes 2 I was imagining at least having hills that could provide a defensive bonus but after playing the Total War series there is so much more that can be done in this area. For example what about areas of long grass that units can be hidden in to ambush, forests that force flying creature to land in order to attack a unit in and that give a defence bonus, patches of boggy ground that slows down land units, slopes that increase a land units attack and cliff edges / rivers that can be used to create choke points on the battle map. The way unit stacks could be developed further with bigger battle maps so you can have multiple stacks of the same kind of unit without restricting the types of units you deploy. So instead of having a stack of 300 low level creatures these are six stacks of 50 that will lead to greater tactical flexibility. This would need a revision of the retaliation rules to something like different creatures get a certain number of retaliations rather than just one or unlimited.
- Random events: Such as floods, hurricanes, and earthquakes that cause temporary changes to the campaign map and decisions such as whether or not to allow a migrating tribe to settle in your lands which could result in a new recruitment structure or the destruction of a resource / structure.


This reminds me closely of this: Atmos
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Laz3456
Laz3456


Hired Hero
posted January 19, 2017 03:52 PM

Absolutely stunning, do you know when it will be available for download and if it will be released in English?

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zmudziak22
zmudziak22


Famous Hero
posted January 19, 2017 04:29 PM

EnergyZ said:
I'd say what can be added is to have four heroes battle at once, like a tag battle. This is basically added in Heroes Online, but why not add it to the base games?


It was done in Heroes 4.

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Antalyan
Antalyan


Promising
Famous Hero
H7 Forever
posted January 19, 2017 05:10 PM

Laz3456 said:
Absolutely stunning, do you know when it will be available for download and if it will be released in English?

Unless anything changes, I will personally do the translation for it so yes, it will be available in English

About the release: It's difficult to say because there's too much work left and too few people involved in the project. Actually, anybody with any will to join is more than welcome.
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Laz3456
Laz3456


Hired Hero
posted January 19, 2017 06:11 PM

Well let me see how I get on with my hero portrait editing, if that goes well and I think I may be of use I'll give you a shout!

____________
Cheers,

Laz3456

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Antalyan
Antalyan


Promising
Famous Hero
H7 Forever
posted January 19, 2017 06:51 PM

Laz3456 said:
Well let me see how I get on with my hero portrait editing, if that goes well and I think I may be of use I'll give you a shout!


Thanks, that would be much appreciated
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EnergyZ
EnergyZ


Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
posted January 19, 2017 06:54 PM

zmudziak22 said:
EnergyZ said:
I'd say what can be added is to have four heroes battle at once, like a tag battle. This is basically added in Heroes Online, but why not add it to the base games?


It was done in Heroes 4.


Er, yeah, come to think of it, I forgot. Still, it wouldn't hurt to return this feature again.
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Brukernavn
Brukernavn

Hero of Order
posted January 19, 2017 07:51 PM

It might actually hurt, it's one of the most disliked elements from H4

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Laz3456
Laz3456


Hired Hero
posted January 23, 2017 01:18 PM

I have found a couple of excellent mods at the below site that improve the visuals of game at least for me.

http://www.hommdb.com/mods/

Both the creatures re-size and saturation mods in my opinion have really improved the look and feel of the game. Creature re-size makes Rakshasa’s and Dragons look far more menacing and the saturation mod especially gives the game a visual vibrancy my young daughter really loves (reminiscent of H4 which I was always a fan of).

I really wonder why these were not included in the main release before support was ended but I guess there were more severe bugs to fix at the time.

____________
Cheers,

Laz3456

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
HC SUPPORTER
posted January 23, 2017 08:01 PM

Not really, the answer from the devs was that bigger sizes would make the models clip. Basically bollocks, people were aware of the mod at the time and kept pointing at it to no avail.

As for your proposals, I'm a bit on the fence. Some good ideas which I myself have pondered, for example diplomacy and more tactical battlefields, but I don't think they're going the same way. The moment you mentioned Total War I knew you meant something different.
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Laz3456
Laz3456


Hired Hero
posted January 24, 2017 12:01 PM

Hello Stevie

I only mentioned Total War with reference to how the battlefield map could use terrain effects that to allow tactical exploitation (such as slopes, obstacles, surface etc.), not to suggest it should be real time combat or anything like that (in case that is what you thought?).  I think the chess board like set up is good but could be developed further while keeping the heart of the game.

Personally I don’t' think long battles would be such a bad thing as long as they are interesting but understand that for some the tactical elements may not be as important.

As I noted on another forum its seems the game can be played in a number of different ways, for some it is an story based RPG, or it could be played as a sand box RPG and even possibly a 4x strategy and that is why I think it is so great!

____________
Cheers,

Laz3456

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Moritzbradtke
Moritzbradtke


Known Hero
posted January 24, 2017 12:09 PM

btw that Saturation mod is outdated i think, is is very old and was overtaken and implented by devs at some Point so there is no Need to install it (:

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Laz3456
Laz3456


Hired Hero
posted January 24, 2017 12:24 PM

Hello Moritzbradtke,

That is strange because I have installed it and it makes a big difference, is there a saturation setting somehwere in game that I have missed?
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Cheers,

Laz3456

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Galaad
Galaad


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Enrothian Conservative Party
posted January 24, 2017 01:16 PM

I suggest to move this thread in the Altar of Wishes.

Laz3456 said:
As I noted on another forum its seems the game can be played in a number of different ways, for some it is an story based RPG, or it could be played as a sand box RPG and even possibly a 4x strategy and that is why I think it is so great!



Heroes is neither 4X nor RPG. It's a simple TBS and you get campaigns on the side. It just needs solid engine with graphics not coming out from Warhammer or Warcraft, lots of content, very good RMG, working multiplayer and decent mod support. Gameplay should be expanded from TotE like 5.5 did, and innovations should not be potential game breakers. Anything can come as toggable option. Really it's that simple.

The major problem of h7 is not that the gameplay hasn't evolved, it's that the gameplay has gone backwards, meaning the games from ten and fifteen years ago offer a better experience (imo).

But if you enjoy that title enough to be willing to correct bugs and implement features using UDK, I know a few that will rejoice.
But just a few.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 24, 2017 01:31 PM

For what it's worth, I also think that having different terrain on the map (mostly depending on the adventure map terrain with additions like wood/bush, hill, road and so on) might be worth a try, considering that this would allow more inherent differences between creatures. Different terrain would have different general movement cost, and also affect some abilities, while certain creatures's affinity with certain terrain would reduce cost.

For example, while woods would come with a movement penalty, a defense/cover bonus against ranged attacks, a more pronounced movement penalty for all Cavalry (except flying) and not count for any Charge bonus, Elves would suffer no movement penalty.

This would make balancing still more difficult, though.

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The_Green_Drag
The_Green_Drag


Supreme Hero
posted January 24, 2017 02:24 PM

Some areas could be spiced up for some extra flavor but the main problem with the new games is that they were working backwards. New installments should have most of what their predecessors had, plus more. Which is true for h6 maybe, but not the rest. I thought picking from two champion units was going to be a great idea, IF they would have got the other parts right.

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