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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: Heroes IV vs AoW 2: strategy elements.
Thread: Heroes IV vs AoW 2: strategy elements. This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
a100pieces
a100pieces


Adventuring Hero
posted April 18, 2002 12:22 AM

Heroes IV vs AoW 2: strategy elements.

Heroes 4 seems to have about 100x less strategy then the AoW 2 demo I just tried out.  

If you've never heard of AoW 2 (like me), then find out about it here, you will not regret it.

http://aow.heavengames.com/

Right now there is a demo you can download.

If you've only played AoW 1 and didn't like it, this game is a lot different from what I gather.  It has about 10x more strategy, and all the complaints (including random map generator) have been addressed in the sequel.

Just a word of advice from an old Heroes 3 player, for those a little disappointed with Heores 4, and wondering what to do, give this a shot, seriously.  I'm not flaming Heroes 4 at all, but for the time being the demo to the game "Wowed" me over 100x more than the entire Heroes 4 game.

I now leave this thread open to discussion of the strategy elements between the the two games and what is better.

I'll start with what little I've seen.

AoW2 has a HUGE battlefield.  Like 10x the size of heroes.  

AoW2 has generally 100x more strategic battles.  You can select which units to move in what order, there is a clear grid system, and it has a lot of options for each units.  

AoW2 has a really really cool split up your army like Heroes 4, but does it much better.  It takes like 1/2 a second to split an army.  

AoW2 seems to have 50x more things to build in your towns.

AoW2 will ship with internet play, and even work through e-mail.

AoW2 towns can be built up defensively like 10x more than H4 towns.  

AoW2 art is a lot nicer than H4 art.

AoW2 can be played real-time and turn-based.

AoW2 has 12 different races.

Interested to hear what the other heroes veterans I knew from back then who feel the same way about Heroes 4 as me  feel about the two games.  
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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted April 18, 2002 09:53 AM

AOW2 can be played in real time?!?!? Did you mean Simultaneous turn based mode? I don't recall hearing about it becoming an RTS.

I'm still downloading it now.. Fileplanet can't handle the load, and the waiting time is unbearable before the download will even begin!

I take it you're one of those biased against HOMM4 right? I hope AOW2 will be better myself, but I'm not biased for or against either.

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Halfling
Halfling

Tavern Dweller
posted April 18, 2002 11:30 AM

I couldn't download it either, first I had to log in with my 'gamespy' name. I first had to register... When I finally managed to do so, it said I had to log in with my 'personal ID', but then I quit with it!
I also think you mean with 'real time strategy' the option to do all of the AI and your own moves at the same time. But I personally think that sucked... (it only lagged my game)
Judging by the screenshots the game looks better, but still a lot like the old one. I don't think I still like it after I've played it for a couple of weeks, and saw all the monsters .
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Icon
Icon


Adventuring Hero
Tower Loving Criminal
posted April 18, 2002 11:45 AM

If you dont want to wait in the line (Fplanet) use this link

http://games.tiscali.cz/clanek/demo.asp?id=3264

I hope AoWII will include random map generator as was promised.
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Batvanio
Batvanio


Adventuring Hero
Archimage
posted April 18, 2002 01:21 PM

Two months ago, I wrote a request for betatesting of AOW2 and today it became a reality.
I must admit you that I am great HOMM fan and was amongst the first to get HOMM4 - 28.03. - I am to the last campaign at Expert level now. And I think Homm4 is a good game, addictive and versatile.
But for two years I have a reserved space on my HDD for AOW1 - my favourite game. The game with such music&sounds$atmosphere that I 've never heard of since StarCon2. In gameplay it is similar to the older Master of Magic, which is a fantasy revision of Master of Orion(another favourite). And Maser of Orion is a next generation of Civilization but brought into space.
Anyway the AOW gamplay was very addictive and had few drawbacks - the main problem was the absence of many proffesionally made scenarios, campaigns and maps.

I can't wait till tonight when I will install Aow2
Wish me luck.

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Columbus
Columbus


Hired Hero
posted April 18, 2002 01:29 PM

I suspect that most of us will play both games.

I liked the demo in AOW1. But then again I had to as they took 3 months to ship the game outside the US!

I also liked the simultaneous turns mode which very slightly slowed down the computer but which eliminated waiting for the computer players to make their moves between your turns. Your computer must have been very slow indeed if it didn't make things quicker for you. Or perhaps you didn't realise quite what it was doing for you. 3DO could learn from this technique for Homm5

Thanks for telling us about the demo and I will try it. I think the full game is due very soon too.

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a100pieces
a100pieces


Adventuring Hero
posted April 18, 2002 01:39 PM

Jenova, as you know I bought Heroes 4 as soon as I could.  I still it has potential to be a great game, and enjoyed what I have played of it so far a lot.  It does have a few problems to me, that's all really.  Biggest is lack of shadow cursor/confusion in battle.  But that discussion is for a whole other thread

Keep assured I am not merely trying to flame heroes or anything, I am just saying this game AoW 2 has impressed me more than heroes 4 from what little I've played of it.  

I was hoping that if the level of discussion in these forums was anything like the level of maturity from when I was active in the HoMM 3 community, I would get some good discussion between the games.  Fair enough?

Obviously this isn't a replacement to Heroes 4, it's IMO more like Civilization 3 + Heores 4 + Final Fantasy Tactics.  It is also a demo, and it is not without bugs (as to be expected from a beta-demo).  I have not encountered any bugs yet myself though.  

Hope some people who are looking to give the comparison a chance actually get to play the game soon and comment.  It took me about 30 mins to finish the download from fileplanet, and there are mirrors if you do not like fileplanet, you just have to look.
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Pure_Chaos
Pure_Chaos


Bad-mannered
Known Hero
Destroyer of Morons
posted April 18, 2002 01:56 PM

Disciples II > AOW II

Enough Said

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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted April 18, 2002 05:08 PM

Quote:
Disciples II > AOW II

Enough Said  


What?

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SubZero
SubZero


Adventuring Hero
posted April 18, 2002 06:51 PM

I haven't played the demo yet but I have played first AOW

"Heroes 4 seems to have about 100x less strategy then the AoW 2 demo I just tried out."  

- HoMM3 had 100x strategy than AOW...I'm not so sure have things changed so much...

"If you've only played AoW 1 and didn't like it, this game is a lot different from what I gather.  It has about 10x more strategy, and all the complaints (including random map generator) have been addressed in the sequel."

- Sounds interesting. Would like to what kind of strategy elements it has more. What I have read from previews it offers almost the same as AOW with some new options though.

"AoW2 has a HUGE battlefield.  Like 10x the size of heroes."

-The size of battlefield doesn't necessarily mean more strategy being involved because if you cannot divide troops efficiently there is just lot of empty space and strategic options are very much minimal. I think this was the case in AOW1.

"AoW2 has generally 100x more strategic battles.  You can select which units to move in what order, there is a clear grid system, and it has a lot of options for each units."

- 100x more strategic? Wow...
Do you mean that HoMMIV battle is simple? I wouldn't say so with all the spells especially involved...  

"AoW2 has a really really cool split up your army like Heroes 4, but does it much better.  It takes like 1/2 a second to split an army."

- Time consuming game aswell?
Game I can fit to my calendar. Play one hour and then play never...OK..just kidding.  

"AoW2 seems to have 50x more things to build in your towns."

- So if HoMMIV has...let's say 10 buildings per town...AOW has 500? That's really interesting...what all those buildings do?

"AoW2 will ship with internet play, and even work through e-mail."

- Yes...I have always wanted to play game over email so each game can last for months. But multiplayer option in internet is good option to have...which some games lack...unfortunately.

"AoW2 towns can be built up defensively like 10x more than H4 towns."

- So there are all kinds of pits and stuff to hold enemy?  

"AoW2 art is a lot nicer than H4 art."

- I don't like HoMMIV art that much but AOW2 doesn't look so pretty either.

"AoW2 can be played real-time and turn-based."

- Realtime sucks...so doesn't matter to me. And it's simultaneous turns not RTS which sucks too so...Nothing new.

"AoW2 has 12 different races."

- So many races but what they offer really? Are they balanced at all? I bet there are certain killer units that you end up using from each race.

I'm sorry if I was too negative even when I haven't checked out the demo yet but you sounded like commercial and I usually hate that when you weren't talking real business but just saying that Game A is better than Game B 10000X times. That is just your opinion which you are of course allowed to say aloud but I won't go all excited about some game when the first part of the game was total piece of crap when it comes to strategy. And neither should anyone else.
But I will check the demo...who knows...I might even like it.
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a100pieces
a100pieces


Adventuring Hero
posted April 18, 2002 10:41 PM

I'll respond to your post later, but be assured my opinions are well based.  I was a very successful Heroes 3 player, and started back with Heroes 2.  I find Heroes 4 pathetically easy, and that's on the expert+ difficulty settings.

I appreciate you breaking down my points and discussing them.  Yes some were exagerations, and yes, it does sounds flashy.  Let's move past that, and now try to discuss the two games more carefully.  I will respond again when I get more time.  Give it a shot though.  And the art is a lot better in game, than in screenshots.
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FuriousGeorge
FuriousGeorge


Hired Hero
posted April 19, 2002 08:57 AM

I played the AOW2 demo for about 20 minutes and got bored.

I'll go back & try again, if there is this 'deep' strategy you speak of.
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Columbus
Columbus


Hired Hero
posted April 19, 2002 02:01 PM

Quote:
I played the AOW2 demo for about 20 minutes and got bored.


Tried to d/l and my computer got bored. 100 Mb download is about 6 hours on my machine, it got to 29% then disconnected and 31% and disconnected

Think I'll wait for the release

btw, if you were wanting an informed debate on the two games why was your first post all "50 times better, 100 times more"

I think Sub-Zero has torpedoed your arguments because you expressed them so badly

Enjoy the demo, I'll give you a game when it's released (unless the HoMM4 MP patch comes out the same day ;-)

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a100pieces
a100pieces


Adventuring Hero
posted April 19, 2002 04:31 PM

Quote:
I haven't played the demo yet but I have played first AOW
"Heroes 4 seems to have about 100x less strategy then the AoW 2 demo I just tried out."

- HoMM3 had 100x strategy than AOW...I'm not so sure have things changed so much...



Like I said I never played AoW 1, so I can't comment on your corellation, but I definetly agree HoMM3 was one of the best strategy games I ever played.  I wouldn't be so quick to say AoW2 is more strategic than HoMM3, cause I know how good HoMM3 is for strategy.  I have not played AoW2 long enough to compare it to 3.  Just like you didn't compare HoMM4 to AoW.  However, I find as it is, HoMM4 has a lot less strategy than HoMM3, but it could potentially be fixed to be as good or better than HoMM3.  

Quote:
"If you've only played AoW 1 and didn't like it, this game is a lot different from what I gather. It has about 10x more strategy, and all the complaints (including random map generator) have been addressed in the sequel."

- Sounds interesting. Would like to what kind of strategy elements it has more. What I have read from previews it offers almost the same as AOW with some new options though.



Strategy elements I've noticed are:

1) Buildings don't automagically build each turn.  The durations for buildings add an element of strategy because taking better ones take longer where as worse ones give more immediate results.  This is also true of creature building (but Homm2/3/4 incorporates a similiar thing with growth for creatures)

2) You have a lot more paths to take.  Games drastically differ whether people decide to go for melee units, faster units, or archery units, all units have unique powers like HoMM4.

3) Not just Heroes, but all creature units can gain experience in level up, like in Civ 3.  I feel this is more realistic and adds more strategy, because it makes you decide whether or not you want to replace your 4th level pikeman with a swordsman (so to speak in Heroes terms).  

4) Plenty of deception/counter-deception elements.  Cloaking, appearing as something else, certain units traverse certain terrain better, etc.

5) I don't know if the first one focused on magic much, but there are a LOT of spells in this game.  

6) Nodes.  I guess one could argue this is a little like AoW's version to HoMM's various resource mines,

7) To the best of my knowledge you are not limited to 8 units on the screen at once.  This adds a lot more strategy, and takes away a little.  I never much liked the reason for that, and never understood it either.  Thought it was some sort of restriction of the engine.  Maybe AoW2 has a limit, I don't know for sure, but I have not noticed one yet.

8) Units.  AoW2 has a lot of units, and summoned/converted units don't vanish at the end of the turn which I like a lot better.

9) Spell points vs research points.  You have to decide to go for the benefits of waiting out for research or getting a lot more spell points for using lots of spells in combat.  This is a minor strategic element, but one none-the-less.

That should do for now, if you're interested in carrying out this discussion (which I hope you are, I'll think of more for you later).  You seem to have had a shot at AoW 1 and I haven't so I don't know how much of what is new I listed, but I listed what I felt is relevant and different from heroes.


Quote:
"AoW2 has a HUGE battlefield. Like 10x the size of heroes."

-The size of battlefield doesn't necessarily mean more strategy being involved because if you cannot divide troops efficiently there is just lot of empty space and strategic options are very much minimal. I think this was the case in AOW1.



Ok, you have a point.  From what I've seen it doesn't use it to it's fullest.  But I'd like to point out:

1) Battlefields are all very unique and represent more or less the exact area they were fought in.  More so than most other games I played, and I like that a lot.  

2) Town battles are very sweet, with height bonuses for units on top of the tower walls, and 4 sides, not one.  The isometric view of HoMM4 seems only half thought out compared to how it's handled in AoW2.

3) In battles, there is much more information provided for a more strategic battle.  Exact hit %s, penalties, movement points, distances, everything is all provided for you.  

4) Also not entirely related, but on the main map you can find out the creature info of neutral units which I like a lot, especially for players who are just starting out.

Quote:
"AoW2 has generally 100x more strategic battles. You can select which units to move in what order, there is a clear grid system, and it has a lot of options for each units."

- 100x more strategic? Wow...
Do you mean that HoMMIV battle is simple? I wouldn't say so with all the spells especially involved...



No, I don't mean to say HoMM4 battles are simplistic.  They are pretty fun, but I don't like the progression in terms of the battlefield and indicators they did from HoMM3 much at all.  It ruins a lot of the game for me.  

Quote:
"AoW2 has a really really cool split up your army like Heroes 4, but does it much better. It takes like 1/2 a second to split an army."

- Time consuming game aswell?
Game I can fit to my calendar. Play one hour and then play never...OK..just kidding.


In general I would like to point out I do feel the UI in Heroes 4 is not as thought out as the one in AoW2.  Not to say it's awful, but there is a lot of room for improvement, in both games I'm sure.

Quote:
"AoW2 seems to have 50x more things to build in your towns."

- So if HoMMIV has...let's say 10 buildings per town...AOW has 500? That's really interesting...what all those buildings do?


Lots and lots of upgrades to buildings from what I see, not really sure what they all do, haven't played it long enough to figure it all out  I would place it more at 2-4x more buildings realistically if HoMM4 has around 10.

Quote:

"AoW2 will ship with internet play, and even work through e-mail."

- Yes...I have always wanted to play game over email so each game can last for months. But multiplayer option in internet is good option to have...which some games lack...unfortunately.



Nevertheless, e-mail is still a unique option.  Lacking internet play is not good at all IMO.  I could live without the random map generator, but without a good campaign mode (no CGI?  come on 3D0.) and no internet, the game is going to be collecting dust for a little while.  Especially with Discipels 2 being so damn addicting and hard (cause they cheat and make the cpu have too many advantadges, but it's still a lot of fun).

Quote:
"AoW2 towns can be built up defensively like 10x more than H4 towns."

- So there are all kinds of pits and stuff to hold enemy?



I'm not sure, but that's one of the things I liked about HoMM4.  I'm guessing no.  However there are a lot more options to build up your town, and seiges/town battles seem much more realisticly done in AoW2.  See for yourself.  I captures 3 town in under 25 turns (remember I'm new here at AoW2), so you don't have to play too long to see what it's like.

Also, AoW2 has unique things like the ability to build additional towns, guard towers and casting towers (where mages can cast spells to aid your battles from afar, really really cool).  I think this also helps to add more strategy.

Quote:
"AoW2 art is a lot nicer than H4 art."

- I don't like HoMMIV art that much but AOW2 doesn't look so pretty either.


Ok, well, it's not Discipels 2 nice, but nicer still IMO.  The coolest things is the zooming.  Although I don't use it much cause my PC is too slow to play zoomed out, but I find it a neat idea.

Quote:
"AoW2 can be played real-time and turn-based."

- Realtime sucks...so doesn't matter to me. And it's simultaneous turns not RTS which sucks too so...Nothing new.


I agree.  And stand corrected.  Turns are synchronous, and synchronous turns are not my favorite.  Thank god they are smart and left classic mode in.

Quote:
"AoW2 has 12 different races."

- So many races but what they offer really? Are they balanced at all? I bet there are certain killer units that you end up using from each race.


I hope they're all balanced.  Demo only lets you play 2, but to their fullest.  I think with all the units each race has, and how different they all are, whether it's balanced should be interesting to see.  It felt so to me, but I don't know for sure.  

I really liked how I could build nymphs, which would convert other units to my side as the elves, that kinda of creature ability is something I like to see in games.  Not just the standard first strike/ranged/melee variations.

Quote:
I'm sorry if I was too negative even when I haven't checked out the demo yet but you sounded like commercial and I usually hate that when you weren't talking real business but just saying that Game A is better than Game B 10000X times. That is just your opinion which you are of course allowed to say aloud but I won't go all excited about some game when the first part of the game was total piece of crap when it comes to strategy. And neither should anyone else.
But I will check the demo...who knows...I might even like it.  


Please do give it a shot.  And if you can take it upon yourself, I'd love to continue discussing the two games in the more mature fasion this post represents.  Anyone else can feel free to contribute to the discussion as well of course, if they're looking to give the two sides fair chances.  Or even if they're not it might still be fun  

Looking forward to your response to this huge post.

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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted April 19, 2002 04:57 PM

I notice a lot of AOW's points that you noted (actually almost all of them) were taken directly from MOM. But that's why I like it. I can't have MOM2, so I'll settle for the next best thing which is the AOW series.

In fact AOW1 could have been called MOM2 and it wouldn't need to be changed. Same with AOW2.

If anything, I think AOW2 is missing one more sphere of magic: Order (aka Sorcery).

Fire should be called Chaos, and Earth should be called Nature. Then we get the usual theme established from MOM and HOMM4 (and Lord of Magic).
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physcho
physcho


Known Hero
[This space For Rent]
posted April 19, 2002 07:08 PM

Well if they changed the names to be like homm4 im sure many people would complain and so on, however as a addict of aow1 ( great hotseat fun) and homm3 (great hotseat fun...) i beleive both games each have differences and should 14hrs of gameplay of one leave you abit tired, one switch and your happy again... anyhow my favourite part of Aow was the wide (if abit similar in some cases) rnage of high level units that you could get.. for all the races, and the different sizes of towns, it had some nice twists in it.

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Tortoise
Tortoise


Known Hero
Master of Reptiles.
posted April 19, 2002 07:38 PM

Well I was expecting AOW2 to be far superior for a few main reasons.

#1. 3do is silly.
#2. Its hard to top heroes 3.
#3. AOW1 had an excrutiatingly low buget yet they still made an excellent game@@!@!
#4. Now that AOW1 was such a success a significant increase of funding was given to the AOW2 project.

And wonders 1 had great music. and again undead ruled the lands.  But The high men were my #2 choice.
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SubZero
SubZero


Adventuring Hero
posted April 19, 2002 07:56 PM

Just learned that...

You should always save your message before you post it...

I have long post in response for a100pieces post...but when I pressed that post button...my Explorer crashed (big surprise) and that all was gone.

I won't write that everything again but my main point was that after trying that demo out I would say that AOW2 seems to be better than the first one and many things that a100pieces mentioned better in AOW2 than in HoMMIV should be in final product.

Interesting game...however I felt like I did with the first one that it lacked feeling of the game that HoMM3 had. AOW feels just somehow "clinical" game which unfortunately HoMMIV also is compared to HoMM3 and this is because of those 3D creatures.

So game is good I would say but something is missing...
It's not just for my taste.

I think a100pieces made good observations about the game and how it is similar/different to HoMMIV. Those who want to comment more be welcomed. I rest now and shout for a while for my dear Internet Explorer...
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a100pieces
a100pieces


Adventuring Hero
posted April 19, 2002 08:12 PM

Damn IE.  I hate it when that happens to my e-mails and such.  I've gotten into the habbit of not hitting post before I copy it myself.  It saves lots of frustration.

Anyway, you might have a point about it not having that "special" something.  It is a very strategic game, however it doesn't seem to capivate me the same way HoMM3 or Discipels 2 has.  But I like the strategic elements in AoW2 best of any game I think.  We'll see what happens when final product is out.  Who knows, maybe it will grow on me some more once I can play it campaign mode.  

Thanks for the response.

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Thunder
Thunder


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted April 19, 2002 08:20 PM

Well, music is nice. But not nicer than in HoMM 4. Graphics to me seem to be worse than in those pics. Especially units look ugly. Heroes 4 has better graphics. Animation too seems to be better in Heroes 4.

HoMM 4 doesn't have good AI for certain, but so it seems to be the case with AoW 2 too. I put both computer opponents to the hardest difficulty. Emperor I think. Computer got my town conquered when I didn't have any units defending it. Nevertheless I conquered it back in few turn. The next time my town was unguarded, AI didn't even tried to conquer it but conquered some mines instead. Sigh.

AoW 2 reminds me much about Warlords series. And I haven't cared much about Warlords for years.

It didn't took long when I got bored it. I played it for maybe more than half a hour. I might give it another try yet.
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