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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Special Battlefield Heroes.
Thread: Special Battlefield Heroes. This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted April 17, 2017 11:02 PM

Special Battlefield Heroes.

An idea I had, taking inspiration from H4's Heroes on the battlefield and from games with a similar system, such as Total War Warhammer.

Simply put, the idea is to have the option to recruit special battlefield heroes to join your army. They work like a single, powerful unit with the ability to earn levels which upgrades their stats. Unlike your primary heroes, these cannot learn new skills or spells beyond what they inherently knows, nor can they lead an army without a hero, but they would be able to be an excellent addition to most armies, bringing with them a pretty good unit, as well as unique special abilities depending on the type of hero. Another possibility they bring with them are taking over some classic units, such as the vampire or lich from necropolis, opening slots for new interesting units, such as a feral Nosferatu type vampire.
And I would just like to note, I do imaging there would be around 2 different types per faction, one might the other magic, and that they would each have their own dwelling that would be needed to be build in order for them to be recruited.
Downsides, the ever present issue of them becoming OP like in Heroes IV, but that's mainly a balancing issue. The ideal would probably be to have them being powerful, but still weak enough to easily be defeated if focused hard enough. Another way to balance them would be to adding a max you can have per army, probably around 2 per army I would say. This prevents you from creating an entire army of just over leveled heroes.

But hey, this is just my idea.

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Galaad
Galaad


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Enrothian Conservative Party
posted April 17, 2017 11:17 PM

Mediczero said:
But hey, this is just my idea.


Except, it was already made 10 years ago in wog.







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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted April 17, 2017 11:22 PM

Galaad said:
Except, it was already made 10 years ago in wog.

Well, I did not know that. But I suppose there should not be any real problems with it then.

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Galaad
Galaad


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Enrothian Conservative Party
posted April 17, 2017 11:26 PM

I personally hate it.

But there is great maps using them, more RPG focused, so it all depends. I certainly enjoyed it a lot in some specific single scenarios, but for standard play no.
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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted April 17, 2017 11:28 PM

Then, anything you think that would have made it better? More widely usable?

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PandaTar
PandaTar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted April 17, 2017 11:40 PM

I would like it, because, differently from Galaad, I like heroes on the battlefield.

It all depends on which niche you are willing to go for, Mediczero.
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Baronus
Baronus


Famous Hero
posted April 18, 2017 09:07 AM

I like all options.
1. No heroes.
2. With heroes like HIV.
3. With duble heroes system like WoG.
4. Mixed like Heroes V I see is good too.
...
Very good we have 4 systems. Only one system is poor.

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kiryu133
kiryu133

Hero of Order
Highly illogical
posted April 20, 2017 03:05 PM

I love the idea and I think WoG did it pretty well.
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LizardWarrior
LizardWarrior


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Age of erwins is over
posted April 21, 2017 10:03 AM

The problem with WoG commands (and the same problem with the h4 battlefield heroes) is that they scale way too fast becoming a one-man army, rather than a support unit. Though WoG is better since you can have only one commander per hero and they don't get a spellbook too.
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kiryu133
kiryu133

Hero of Order
Highly illogical
posted April 24, 2017 11:08 AM

There's a fine balance to be sure. I guess the really challenge lies in what you wish yo accomplish with it. I quite enjoyed the sorta "DnD adventuring party" feel H4 tried and in some places succeeded rather well with for example. It really all comes down to balance: you don't want your heroes to be too strong but not to weak either and no matter what anyone says, them killing hundreds goblins is fun and fitting to some degree but hundreds of dragons is no good.

Where the balance sits and how to achieve it, however, I can not tell.
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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted April 24, 2017 11:25 AM

kiryu133 said:
Where the balance sits and how to achieve it, however, I can not tell.


Personally, I think that the only way to balance individual Heroes on the battlefield is by restricting stack size of the regular units to a certain maximum amount.
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EnergyZ
EnergyZ


Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
posted April 24, 2017 11:27 AM

Something what Heroes Online is doing. Maybe.

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Gryphs
Gryphs


Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
posted April 24, 2017 11:28 AM
Edited by Gryphs at 11:31, 24 Apr 2017.

Maurice said:
kiryu133 said:
Where the balance sits and how to achieve it, however, I can not tell.


Personally, I think that the only way to balance individual Heroes on the battlefield is by restricting stack size of the regular units to a certain maximum amount.
Wouldn't stop a hero from decimating high level units though. They would just be decimated one stack at a time.
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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted April 24, 2017 12:30 PM

Gryphs said:
Wouldn't stop a hero from decimating high level units though. They would just be decimated one stack at a time.


That depends on balancing. I feel that it's impossible to balance Heroes on the battlefield when stacksizes are boundless.
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Gryphs
Gryphs


Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
posted April 24, 2017 01:30 PM

Maurice said:
Gryphs said:
Wouldn't stop a hero from decimating high level units though. They would just be decimated one stack at a time.


That depends on balancing. I feel that it's impossible to balance Heroes on the battlefield when stacksizes are boundless.
You would have to limit stack sizes at different rates for different tiers though because a hero that can kill five dragons would easily kill five peasants.
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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted April 24, 2017 05:38 PM

Gryphs said:
You would have to limit stack sizes at different rates for different tiers though because a hero that can kill five dragons would easily kill five peasants.


I guess that's inevitable. Relative stack power is a consideration. Basically, it's already embedded in things like Weekly Growth of creatures.
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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted April 24, 2017 06:23 PM

Maurice said:
Basically, it's already embedded in things like Weekly Growth of creatures.


A couple of years ago I ran some tests of unit cost compared to how good it was in HoMM 3, and while I don't remember any details anymore, I do recall the result wasn't that clear cut, meaning e.g. a stack of tier 1 unit with equal costs of that of a stack of e.g. tier 7 units could still be won by the tier 1 unit stack.

If one choose to limit a stack size so the strength level of different tiers would be equal I think that would be interesting. A low tier would strength wise be just as important as a high tier, the importance would in stead be determined by what you need from your particular unit and how it can improve other units by its presence (in a tactical manner, not by aura boosts and stuff). Mainly high tier units would be able to solve many issues where low tier units may only be usable for having something that can hit hard (especially combined with something that lowers the oppositions defense).

Why go for a high tier ever then? Because the strength of high tier units compared to town growth rates still makes the high tier better for a long time, and when it comes to creeping high tier units have the hp, movement (flying/ranged vs. walking) and speed advantage making them much better at this.

But I think it'd be a good idea the stack size limit not to be absolute but relative to some number that grows as the game keeps going. If you could have an army of 25 tier 7 units and 3000 tier 1 units, but the maximum stays at 5 tier 7 and 900 tier 1 units you are making the game after a certain point less relevant in my opinion.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted April 24, 2017 07:43 PM

Good points, ohfor. It could be tied to Hero level, perhaps? And/or relevant skills.

Keep in mind that one general aspect is that low tier units tend to die faster because it's easier to deal lethal damage for each individual in the stack.
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kiryu133
kiryu133

Hero of Order
Highly illogical
posted April 24, 2017 07:53 PM

If heroes is to have a battlefield presence there needs to be sufficient reason to pick her over a stack of creatures and vice verse. Answer that and I think you have the solution.
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PandaTar
PandaTar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted April 24, 2017 08:14 PM

Hero must command troops. Giving enough mechanics and interactive elements between both would do, something that a stack cannot do with another, rather than attack, retaliate and die.
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Heroes-based proposal thread On hold, while I'm writing my book. =)

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