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gemeaux333
Known Hero
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posted July 22, 2018 12:58 AM |
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Why not simply let Virtuos making HOMM8, and validate the assets of HOMM6 (good graphics, good music, good scenario and persistant progression system like the conflux) ?
At least Virtuos made better than Limbic of the Shades of Darkness expansion and made the whole game perfectly stable (HOMM6 is perfectly playable for 4 years by now, like it should have always been) !)
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gemeaux333
Known Hero
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posted July 22, 2018 01:03 AM |
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And good gameplay I forgot, at least HOMM6 was accessible to both novices and veterans with a great strategic layer (infinite possibilities)!
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bitmaid
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 22, 2018 03:10 AM |
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I honestly think Heroes deserves a dedicated studio or at least one that's specialized in strategy genre. At the same time no matter which dev it's assigned to, they have the responsibility to improve and innovate.
The constant call to get everything revert back to H3 or H5 or even H6 (it's rare) isn't viable in practice. The dev needs to show their competence and that they can implement new features so the project looks good on their portfolio. And the recycling of assets is and should be frowned upon. They need to evolve with the industry which is why it's never going back to 2D or a series of classic mechanisms. People hate on new designs and want to go back because the new ones are snowty. The thing is we COULD get Heroes which gameplay SURPASS h3, only it won't happen because the sleazy snows at Ubisoft won't invest proper time and resource in it.
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gemeaux333
Known Hero
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posted July 22, 2018 03:44 AM |
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Virtuos is not different from Cyberlore who did the HOMM2 expansion (as well as Warcraft 2 expansion), they offer their talents to those who pay the best !
Reviews for HOMM6 are mostly positive if you consider all those made lately, and all says in substance : HOMM7 sucked to no end and HOMM5 do not age well at all, lets re-install HOMM6...
So it is justice to base the next HOMM game on the upsides of HOMM6, even Erwan Le Breton admited that whatever part of the community he say is right, he will alienate the other...
What about Firaxis to devellop a HOMM game ? They have proved lately they can do it very well with Civilization and X-COM !
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted July 22, 2018 11:43 AM |
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gemeaux333 said:
Why not simply let Virtuos making HOMM8, and validate the assets of HOMM6 (good graphics, good music, good scenario and persistant progression system like the conflux) ?
At least Virtuos made better than Limbic of the Shades of Darkness expansion and made the whole game perfectly stable (HOMM6 is perfectly playable for 4 years by now, like it should have always been) !)
This sounds like trolling, lol! Graphics is at best average, music is remix of old better scores, and conflux made the game unplayable! And who the f thought that leveling weapons binded to conflux along with starting bonuses is good idea? Not sure what good scenario means, but if you mean levels they are stupid, without interesting objects and stupid scripted AI.
As for perfectly playable, I still can't run the game with latest patch on my nvidia graphics  (and I'm not the only one...)
____________
"Occam's shuriken: when the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas." -- Dr. Gordon Freeman (Freeman's Mind)
"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN
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gemeaux333
Known Hero
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posted July 22, 2018 03:18 PM |
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You are definitly not the kind of person I am thinking about... I actually think about the silent majority of players built around HOMM6 who loved it (or simply appreciated it at its right value) and don't complain or make summary critics !
The graphics were impressive back then and still superior to those of HOMM7, the musics were great remix and new ones (even if the alternative versions are better), the conflux works properly and make the game fully playable by now(just have to get a proper internet connection)and the scenario/scenery and maps are great (not that difficult when you look at HOMM7 which are completely scripted and borring)
And yes the Conflux and all the persistant elements are the greatest idea that could have been added to a HOMM game this far, and should be kept if common sense prevail !
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 22, 2018 04:53 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 16:56, 22 Jul 2018.
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bitmaid said:
I honestly think Heroes deserves a dedicated studio or at least one that's specialized in strategy genre. At the same time no matter which dev it's assigned to, they have the responsibility to improve and innovate.
The constant call to get everything revert back to H3 or H5 or even H6 (it's rare) isn't viable in practice. The dev needs to show their competence and that they can implement new features so the project looks good on their portfolio. And the recycling of assets is and should be frowned upon. They need to evolve with the industry which is why it's never going back to 2D or a series of classic mechanisms. People hate on new designs and want to go back because the new ones are snowty. The thing is we COULD get Heroes which gameplay SURPASS h3, only it won't happen because the sleazy snows at Ubisoft won't invest proper time and resource in it.
You can have my virtual handshake for all the points you've made here and even in previous posts, because I feel you're speaking for both of us (if not more). Yes, Heroes 3 and 5 were good at their time but not the future of the series. Yes, Ubisoft needs to be inspired, passionate and invest if they want a breakthrough. Yes, they need to hire a competent dev team with a vision and the necessary technical know-how. And yes, as it stands there is little hope warranted that they'll manage to deliver anything good with the next installment. Their focus on the Chinese market won't do any good either, not with double the incentive to maximize profits by throwing cheap cash grabs for the average nerd to buy. Let's not forget that Heroes 7 was not a financial success, even more reason to produce hot garbage titles and sell them en masse to recuperate a failed investment.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted July 22, 2018 05:41 PM |
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Quote:
- if they target a different audience (they can easily draw the conclusion that old players no longer have faith in them) they will dumb it way down to pander to kids. It's kind of what happened to CIV 6 graphics-wise. I'm still reeling till this day about the atrocious kiddie leaders.
Like they didn'¿t already, check the latest ubiusoft abomination "duel of champions" or something.
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gemeaux333
Known Hero
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posted July 22, 2018 06:27 PM |
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On the other hand, its like CNC Rivals, the report between the potenial number of players for a game of the original series and Heyphone games is 1M/10M...
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted July 22, 2018 06:55 PM |
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gemeaux333 said:
You are definitly not the kind of person I am thinking about... I actually think about the silent majority of players built around HOMM6 who loved it (or simply appreciated it at its right value) and don't complain or make summary critics !
The graphics were impressive back then and still superior to those of HOMM7, the musics were great remix and new ones (even if the alternative versions are better), the conflux works properly and make the game fully playable by now(just have to get a proper internet connection)and the scenario/scenery and maps are great (not that difficult when you look at HOMM7 which are completely scripted and borring)
And yes the Conflux and all the persistant elements are the greatest idea that could have been added to a HOMM game this far, and should be kept if common sense prevail !
for sure Heroes 6 is a very quality product,
I have found multiple great uses for it such as back scratcher, drinks coaster, dartboard, and frisbee for my dog to eat, HoMM6 Frisbee expansion pack is the best game ever, tell your friends cheers lol
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gemeaux333
Known Hero
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posted July 22, 2018 07:32 PM |
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You sure have very bad tastes !
But I will stick to that :
https://youtu.be/VEmy2c1-H_E?t=12m26s
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Findan
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 22, 2018 08:52 PM |
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bitmaid said:
I honestly think Heroes deserves a dedicated studio or at least one that's specialized in strategy genre. At the same time no matter which dev it's assigned to, they have the responsibility to improve and innovate.
I fully agree with you. H7 felt really amateurish. I don't know who was in the development team and how was it constructed but it's pretty obvious it wasn't a fully professional team. It's visible in both gameplay and especially in the artistic vision, which I personally think is really underestimated by many here.
I feel it was just a few people deciding about everything with no actual taste in fashion/art nor representing a mind of a strategist/mathematician. If there is a H8 coming, they need to get someone who specialise in strategy (someone from Firaxis perhaps?). And damn... I want the artist behind the Blade Dancer's concept art to steer the visual wheel. I am still shaking when thinking how from wonderful concept arts we went to ugly game arts and ended with even worse 3D models in some cases.
frostymuaddib said:
This sounds like trolling, lol! Graphics is at best average, music is remix of old better scores, and conflux made the game unplayable!
The graphics were actually more appealing than the dull H7 to me. It all felt consistent while the buildings and objects on the map in H7 felt like different games at times. When you enter the city it gets even worse, not to mention the units. So many different concepts and no consistency in the style. I am with you about the music and conflux though.
bitmaid said:
The constant call to get everything revert back to H3 or H5 or even H6 (it's rare) isn't viable in practice.
I think it's a very vague thing to say. How is it impossible? If you continue the title you lean on the base ideas of the game and some elements are always there so you always 'revert back' somehow. I can't see how initiative system from H5 couldn't be done again, improved. Same with 3D cities. Then we can apply the H3/H6 map style. H3 resources and hexagons? Why not reaching for best elements of each game?
Perhaps, I don't understand you well. In this case I would like you to explain to me what is not viable. To name the 'isn't viable in practice' thing.
Obviously, each game needs to bring progress and innovation. I don't see a point in just remaking a game which is almost perfect - H3. It will never work. No one can improve the 'perfect'. If Heroes 8 is ever going to happen, I wish it will be what H5 (my favourite) was suppose to be.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted July 22, 2018 09:15 PM |
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Quote:
It all felt consistent while the buildings and objects on the map in H7 felt like different games at times. When you enter the city it gets even worse, not to mention the units. So many different concepts and no consistency in the style
That's because H7 3d graphics WERE from different games, some were from h7 and others outsoiurced to independent artists or outright purchased.
According to Erwin there was not enough cash to have an in-studio modelled game, so that's why they only "remade" the units of two factions ans the rest was h6 ones.
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bitmaid
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 23, 2018 12:57 AM |
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Thanks Stevie. It's good to find kindred spirit. Yeah that's exactly what PopCap and some other companies did in China and why they failed. They tweaked their games for the Chinese market to push in-game purchase and the players were eventually fed up. I couldn't care less about a game like PvZ but I'm sure we would all hate to see Heroes go down that way.
And to address several points made by Findan:
Your instinct on artist direction is absolutely correct from what I've learned and it is one of my GREATEST GRIEVANCES about h7 too.
Portrait - This screen alone should show that the art was outsourced to completely different people (on completely different skill levels too). It's absurd how you have to look at these portraits side by side in game.
Concept art- I've come across one of the concept artists' profile on deviantart before. Not first rate stuff for sure and I have no doubt Ubisoft skimped on top of that.
3D- I know for a fact some new 3D assets were outsourced to Chinese artists who did their best with very limited budget. The fault is the lack of artistic vision which lies in Limbic and Ubisoft. Like the scaling issue for example, it's Limbic's decision to not adjust them.
The graphics of Heroes kept devolving since h5. Both h6 and h7 have only 2D townscreens, but at least h6 has actual cinematics whereas h7 has only monocolor pictures and 3D stills as "cutscenes". That's right, even the h6 loading screen is colored whereas the h7 "cutscene" pics aren't.
Well that's my rant on art style because it really hits home lol. Lastly to address your last point, yes of course I meant to keep the core of Heroes. We all know the idea behind Heroes and that will never change. We might transform the narrative, art and parts of gameplay but it will always be Heroes. What I observed was people getting so frustrated with the late disasters that they just want a game that *works*, and since the last well put together games dated many years ago, they'd rather see a cosmetically updated versions of them than play poorly made new ones. I understand the sentiment, but we must demand better. Like I said, the idiot optimist in me believes there could be a Heroes game that surpasses h3 & h5 all around, and it has to be if the franchise is to survive.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 23, 2018 09:01 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 09:58, 23 Jul 2018.
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Quite honestly I'm surprised this has proven so difficult. Even if ubi had no idea(they don't), there is plenty of feedback they could follow. Even with fan disagreements, we know..
- That homm ought to be easy to start, hard to master.
- That certain amounts of randomness are the heart and soul of the series. They add replayability and make you adapt to the tools you have at your disposal.
- That H5 skill system was the best, why and how it could be improved.
- The strengths and weaknesses of each game's magic system. Also that creating more than a few magic skills is a poor idea and that spells should be found in guilds/shrines/libraries.
- That the battlefield and sieges have grown stale.
- That older games had more gameplay options and locations in the adventure map.
- That battlefield and adv map should have noticeable locations and big enough models as opposed to ubi's tiny representations. Also that the battlefield should be visible in one screen and not require zooming in or out.
- That homm is and has always been about mythological creatures rather than several elves/dwarves/orcs per lineup. We haven haven for that!
- That homm isn't just about combat. H6 neglected management and economy and the gameplay became poorer.
- That a good portion of fans prefer the atb initiative system and in which ways it can be improved.
- That homm is meant to be accessible and not have demanding requirements or ridiculous loading times.
- That map editor, random map generator, moddability, simultaneous turns, good music and aesthetics are of the utmost importance.
- That people want numerous factions!
- That creature abilities ought to give them character and avoid repetitive ones. Also that too many abilities are a source of confusion and numerous bugs.
- That campaigns should avoid too many scripted quests, they don't let you make your own decisions and lead to unplayable missions..
- That people loved H5-style hero specials and found H7-style very lacking.
- That hexes are better than squares 
- Ditch crap like conflux and uplay. And if they have to use a platform, let people download patches from elsewhere..
It should think that we can more or less agree on those.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted July 23, 2018 11:26 AM |
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gemeaux333 said:
You are definitly not the kind of person I am thinking about... I actually think about the silent majority of players built around HOMM6 who loved it (or simply appreciated it at its right value) and don't complain or make summary critics !
Please, explain to me the existance of silent majority? Why is it silent? Why don't you explain why is game good? I can love something, but I can criticize it - that meanstrying to be objective. For example, I really love Heroes 5 - it is the only HoMM game that I play at the moment. However, I will be the first to say that AI is crap and slow as hell - thank God for Q's AI patch. Making summary critics is good, or rather, excellent thing. It points out the bad things that can be improved later. Not complaining is bad, because that means that you are accepting all the flaws. And I will repeat myself: one of the bugs in the latest HoMM6 patch is that the game is impossible to run!
gemeaux333 said:
The graphics were impressive back then and still superior to those of HOMM7, the musics were great remix and new ones (even if the alternative versions are better)
What do you mean by impressive graphics? I find them mediocre at best and not fitting a fantasy game. Colours were all washed out, for example. But, that can be considered subjective matter. I still think H3 and H2 have much better graphics than H6 - it fits well with the game. As for music, it was cool to hear old things remixed, but that is not original. I'll tell you what: I'm no music expert, but I listen to it. The fact that I listen H2, H3, H4 and H5 soundracks when I work, and the fact that I can recognize the individual tracks compared to the fact that I can't remember a single track from H6 tells a lot (and I've played H6).
gemeaux333 said:
the conflux works properly and make the game fully playable by now(just have to get a proper internet connection)and the scenario/scenery and maps are great (not that difficult when you look at HOMM7 which are completely scripted and borring)
Okay, I don't even know how to start regarding the conflux. What is the one thing that Conflux brings to the game, that was not there in the other games? Dynasty weapons? They are a nightmare to balance, you select them at map start which can give you unrealistic headstart, and you can use them only while you are using conflux. The price for those weapons: not a single artifact for weapon slot other than dynasty weapons. The only thing that conflux brought was required internet connection in order to have all parts of the game that you bought, lol.
When it comes to the scenarios, I'll admit that I've played only few that are not part of the campaign. On the other hand, devs were so lazy that they released campaing maps as scenarios, lol. But playing against AI was so easy and boring that made quit the game. There was no challenge at all: add to that stupid design choices that dumb down the gameplay, like reducing number of resources, creature pool, town conversion and you have the most boring Heroes game ever. As for campaign scenarios, they were highly scripted so artificial challenge could be created. And that made the game even more boring and tiresome. I remember levels where periodically an enemy hero that you just defeated spawns with an army that he could not have and started attacking you (as there was nothing for him to do on the map lol), and that didn't make the game difficult - it made it even more boring.
gemeaux333 said:
And yes the Conflux and all the persistant elements are the greatest idea that could have been added to a HOMM game this far, and should be kept if common sense prevail !
And this here shows that my post will have no point, as you will ignore the facts about the game and keep thinking that it is a good game. Cheers.
____________
"Occam's shuriken: when the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas." -- Dr. Gordon Freeman (Freeman's Mind)
"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted July 23, 2018 11:42 AM |
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Edited by blob2 at 11:51, 23 Jul 2018.
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Elvin said:
- That older games had more gameplay options and locations in the adventure map.
Outside the reccuring resource generators (not mines) which could be flagged once and give income automatically once per week (like Windmills), I enjoy variety on the map, even if it means the same quest huts, only with different looks. I think that's were a 2D engine performs better. You can put a lot of detail with only a handful of assets and make it look varied as opposed to "empty" 3d models (though it's possible to give a 3D TBS game nice looks).
Elvin said:
- That homm is and has always been about mythological creatures rather than several elves/dwarves/orcs per lineup. We haven haven for that!
Yes, one of the things I enjoyed the most in past games was the variety of cool creatures in each faction pre-H6. It's not Warhammer, armies don't need color-coding, and you can always simply give them a similar color palette like in Heroes III. The NWC H5 back in the day seemed to have a really unique direction with its factions. Shame it didn't come to fruition. I think we can all see with Creature Quest how many ideas some of the original team members have.
Elvin said:
- That a good portion of fans prefer the atb initiative system and in which ways it can be improved.
NO. It's one of the things that divided the community.
Elvin said:
- That homm is meant to be accessible and not have demanding requirements or ridiculous loading times.
I would say better optimization. How an UE4 engine based game could've ever become such a mess is beyond me.
Elvin said:
- That creature abilities ought to give them character and avoid repetitive ones. Also that too many abilities are a source of confusion and numerous bugs.
Keep it plain & simple like in H4. Each creature has a unique set of max 4 abilities. Btw remember how many bugs the abilities with variables (like dmg multipliers) in H6 had? They should avoid those type of abilities.
Elvin said:
- That campaigns should avoid too many scripted quests, they don't let you make your own decisions and lead to unplayable missions..
I think this aspect is unfortunately the effect of modern times and how narratives are driven nowadays. People demand dynamic events, I think times of big pop-up windows with a wall of text is an element of the past (outside of games in which written text is a big aspect of the narrative like topdown RPG-s etc).
Elvin said:
- That people loved H5-style hero specials and found H7-style very lacking.
Unique Hero abilities is something I'm always behind  But make them meaningful, not in the style of "gives +2 ATK to Peasants".
Elvin said:
- That hexes are better than squares
Yes, they open the window for more strategical unit placement. Actually squares + ATB is a bad combination imo. The battle changes into a happy-go-lucky brawl in which the army with better initiative/speed bonuses wins...
Elvin said:
- Ditch crap like conflux and uplay. And if they have to use a platform, let people download patches from elsewhere..
Definitely. Web-based functionalities usually take away from the games consistency. And it's an easy opening for micro-transactions...
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gemeaux333
Known Hero
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posted July 23, 2018 03:08 PM |
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You are all missing the whole point about the conflux, asside from the completely dispensable elements you can get and purely cosmetic that are up to you to decide if its worth getting them, there are plenty of indispensable elements you can get this way that will allow you, everytime you begin a new game, to start with a little more than you got before and renew your pleasure, it works just like inheritance/legacy !
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted July 23, 2018 03:21 PM |
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gemeaux333 said:
You are all missing the whole point about the conflux, asside from the completely dispensable elements you can get and purely cosmetic that are up to you to decide if its worth getting them, there are plenty of indispensable elements you can get this way that will allow you, everytime you begin a new game, to start with a little more than you got before and renew your pleasure, it works just like inheritance/legacy !
that is what we call bad balance or bad design mate, you should not normally be able to start a game with a special advantage (other than your brain or lack thereof) because it imbalances the game cheers lol
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted July 23, 2018 03:23 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 15:24, 23 Jul 2018.
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Not only that, but if they ever decide to pull the plug on the Conflux service, all your future games are excluded from whatever content it provided. Once the Conflux servers are dropped, you'll never ever have mainhand weapons again in any of your H6 games, for instance.
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker
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