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Heroes Community > Summoners Academy > Thread: Non-Legendary Creatures: Balancing & Adjustments
Thread: Non-Legendary Creatures: Balancing & Adjustments
Bragjul
Bragjul


Adventuring Hero
Proud Leader of DARK LORDS
posted August 28, 2017 02:49 PM
Edited by Galaad at 10:08, 04 Sep 2017.

Non-Legendary Creatures: Balancing & Adjustments

I'm starting this thread in order to discuss about the possibility to buff/adjust some of the non legendary creatures that are currently  not so frequently used, but with a bit of 'help' they could come right in the spotlight.

Also, if you have any properly argumented proposal about nerfing any of the existing non legendary creatures, please post it here.

Here is my list:
1. Resurrecting units in dungeon defense: They should prioritize resurrecting a dead unit over healing a hurt creature.

2. Fatigue debuff : Fatigue debuff should not reset if a unit dies. If a unit is killed while having the fatigue debuff ON, if bringing it back to life while in the same wave, the heal (applied together with the actual resurrecting) should be decreased by the fatigue debuff value which was ON, before dying.
I'm asking for this because the resurrecter units are way too overpowered in my opinion, this would be a small nerf to their godlike potential.

3. Gargoyle Overseer (claws an enemy for 100% DEF <2300 full DEF totems at lvl 75> + provides a 50%DEF buff).
His dmg is too low, it should be at least 150% DEF

4. Fox Musketeer(pierce an enemy twice for 100% PWR while buff the team def by 25% )  - his overall kit is really lame, it is surpassed in every aspect by his counter part: the Ant Captain(more dmg, buffs ATK & DEF by 30%DEF, heal and cleanse!)
This small creature could use a rework of the awakening stats.

5. Plant green small creature - again a creature that almost nobody use, any idea for a rework(special skill + awakeinings) ?

6. Panda Warrior - why 80% chance to stun? His damage is modest, the stun chance  should be 100%.

7. Dark Elf - as much as I love this creature, it needs a nerf! His dmg output surpass legendaries damage! It is way too much for an epic creature! At least take out the 'ignore enemy DEF' stat even though that will be almost useless since his ATK stat is huge.

8. Energize units(units that provide mana) in dungeon defense (ex. Whisp) - They currently do nothing in dungeon defense, beside the mediocre heal. They should have an alternate special attack to use in the dungeon defense, since mana does not count for the defending creatures

9. Dwarwen Sky Marshal - pierce 4 random enemies at 70% pwr (+25% vs large/boss creatures )
That's around 4 random hits at 85%PWR(1161 pwr no totems/no tome at lvl 75 and his ATK stat = 1243)
His damage is too low and divided between 4 random targets, at least increase his ATK stat or/and make it prioritize the countered color.

10. Poison/Burn creatures - I already wrote in detail about this issue multiple times. Poisons does not stack, they should stack or detonate when applying two poisons on the same target.
 
11. Dwarf Warrior - his special attack needs to be buffed. His survivability is ok but his damage output is too low. Needs an increase in PWR, or in his special attack percentage, or adding a stun would be nice and also would fit his character lore. In all RPGs dwarfs can stun!

12. Haunted Marionette - this unit has the kit of a debuffer unit(low damage but nice debuffs). However the issue is that his HP is waaay too low, most of the times he dies too fast without getting the chance to cast one single special attack.
He needs an increase in HP. This should be the case with all the debuffer units: high HP pool and DEF are required since their damage is low, they rely on their debuffs to be casted. In order to do that, debuffers need better survivability

13. Imperial Jiangshi: this unit should specialize in a role, currently it is a hybrid that can't fit well enough any role: a bit of damage and a bit of debuff.
If is gonna be a damage dealer -> then increase her damage
If is gonna be a debuffer/lifestealer -> then increase her survivability.

*will add more






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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted August 28, 2017 03:14 PM
Edited by Galaad at 15:23, 28 Aug 2017.

Nice thread idea!
Commenting a bit on some of these.

Quote:
Resurrecting units in dungeon defense: They should prioritize resurrecting a dead unit over healing a hurt creature.


I agree rezzers can be OP in some situations but I don't think removing or nerfing their heal is a good idea. I would rather go for capping the max amount of resurrections that can be done in a battle. OTOH (and correct me if I'm wrong) but all rezzers besides Astral are Epic tier or lower thus is also a risk to bring them on tough dungeons, when a rezzer dies wave 1, the rest of the dungeon can be harsh.

Quote:
Fatigue debuff : Fatigue debuff should not reset if a unit dies. If a unit is killed while having the fatigue debuff ON, if bringing it back to life while in the same wave, the heal (applied together with the actual resurrecting) should be decreased by the fatigue debuff value which was ON, before dying.
I'm asking for this because the resurrecter units are way too overpowered in my opinion, this would be a small nerf to their godlike potential.


All debuffs reset when a unit dies, keeping it would only make the fight longer, if the problem are rezzers then rezzers need to be looked into. Keep also in mind rezzers and passive healing are the only way (to my knowledge) to survive a stunlock abuse, so there's also that.

Quote:
Gargoyle Overseer (claws an enemy for 100% DEF <2300 full DEF totems at lvl 75> + provides a 50%DEF buff).
His dmg is too low, it should be at least 150% DEF


Agreed, the defense buff (isn't it 40%?) is rather meh considering the huge damage from attackers and there is lack of damage dealers in dark creatures anyway, another point not helping with white healers.

Quote:
Plant green small creature - again a creature that almost nobody use, any idea for a rework(special skill + awakeinings) ?


There is a few creatures that deal more damage on small and mediums making them useless in dungeon defense, but I suspect these will find their use in Kingdom.

Quote:
Panda Warrior - why 80% chance to stun? His damage is modest, the stun chance  should be 100%.


Agreed.

Quote:
Dark Elf - as much as I love this creature, it needs a nerf! His dmg output surpass legendaries damage! It is way too much for an epic creature! At least take out the 'ignore enemy DEF' stat.


It is true she is among the best nukers of the game but keep in mind she dies very easily and cannot really be used for competition if you lack a rezzer, while in PvE her high damage makes the grinding easier.

Quote:
Dwarwen Sky Marshal - pierce 4 random enemies at 70% pwr (+25% vs large/boss creatures )
That's around 4 random hits at 85%PWR(1161 pwr no totems/no tome at lvl 75 and his ATK stat = 1243)
His damage is too low and divided between 4 random targets, at least increase his ATK stat or/and make it prioritize the countered color.


Agreed.

Quote:
Poison/Burn creatures - I already wrote in detail about this issue multiple times. Poisons does not stack, they should stack or detonate when applying two poisons on the same target.


I agree poison is too weak (except for a few creatures), the strategy is to synergize with units dealing more damage to poisoned units like Cobra, but all this is too weak compared to stun.
I think burning is fine, the DoT killed my green giant more than once.
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Bragjul
Bragjul


Adventuring Hero
Proud Leader of DARK LORDS
posted August 28, 2017 03:53 PM
Edited by Bragjul at 16:04, 28 Aug 2017.

Galaad said:
Nice thread idea!
Commenting a bit on some of these.

Resurrecting units in dungeon defense: They should prioritize resurrecting a dead unit over healing a hurt creature.

I agree rezzers can be OP in some situations but I don't think removing or nerfing their heal is a good idea. I would rather go for capping the max amount of resurrections that can be done in a battle. OTOH (and correct me if I'm wrong) but all rezzers besides Astral are Epic tier or lower thus is also a risk to bring them on tough dungeons, when a rezzer dies wave 1, the rest of the dungeon can be harsh.




I think I didn't expressed myself properly here because it seems you misunderstood. I was not talking about removing / nerfing their heal, I was pointing out the resurrecters only as DEFENDERS: they should always prioritize resurecting& healing a dead unit and only if no other units are dead, only then to heal a random injured unit.

Let me give you a concrete example so I'll make my point clear: A dungeon defense wave that has the following three flying creatures:
- ornihopter - left
- white owl - middle
- red drake - right

Now let's say the attacker uses a creature that can dmg three units at once.
- So in turn 1, he targets the white owl damaging her and also the adjacent units.
- As a result the owl is severely damaged and dies,  the ornihopter and the red drake are injured but still alive.
- In Turn 2, the ornihopter triggers his special attack: now here is the issue, because the chances are equal to:
1) heal+resurect the dead owl
2) heal itself
3) heal the injured red drake
My proposal was that the resurrecter(in our case the ornihopter) should always prioritize healing&resurrecting the dead unit( in our case the owl) and only if no other unit is dead, only then should heal a random injured unit(in our case ornihopter itself or the red drake).

_________________________________
Galaad said:
All debuffs reset when a unit dies, keeping it would only make the fight longer, if the problem are rezzers then rezzers need to be looked into. Keep also in mind rezzers and passive healing are the only way (to my knowledge) to survive a stunlock abuse, so there's also that."


Dungeon DEFENDER point of view:
I don't know what could be done to balance the resurrecting ability.. currently it is almost impossible to successfully defend if you don't manage to kill the attacking resurrecter. You can kill all other units but if the attacking resurrecter stays alive, he can just bring them back to life one by one...
In the end, dungeons will start to be all black, to counter the color of the all mighty Astral Watcher which is the most used(the only resurrecting & legendary creature).

That's why I was talking about the fatigue debuff to stay on the killed creatures, so when they will be bringed back to life, they will be at least red/yellow HP.

PS: thanks for your comments

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Brukernavn
Brukernavn

Hero of Order
posted August 28, 2017 05:46 PM

I agree with all of the suggestions, except maybe 1. and 2.

1. In my experience this is mostly the case already.

2. I have a different proposal when it comes to fatigue and resurrecting units. Most abilities have a counter apart from buffing/debuffing stats. Protection counters DoT and stun/silence before the fact and cleanse after the fact, fatigue counters heal, and enemy buffs can be removed. But resurrection does not have a proper counter, and it should have. Something like mortality - that reduces the effect of resurrection (like fatigue does with healing), or that gives it a chance to "fail" like other abilities have.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted August 28, 2017 08:23 PM

@Bragjul Indeed I misread you, my bad.

@Bruk I fear that would make rezzers too unreliable, and imagine how irritating would be to fail a resurrection between two stunlocks.

Anyway let's try to keep it on creatures specifics.
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Brukernavn
Brukernavn

Hero of Order
posted August 28, 2017 11:08 PM

I get your point, Galaad, but the fact that  stun is broken is not a good enough reason for me to shield resurrection from a counter, since all the other abilities have one. Only Astral can survive a stunlock anyway, so it's still not a sufficient solution

Anyway, back to the point. Other creatures that could use a buff:

Jellyfish Genius Attacks 6 random enemies for 40 % PWR each. This damage output is less than most medium creatures have against a single enemy target, which is much more useful. It also has a 40 % chance to inflict 20 % poison damage for 6 turns. The poison damage should be increased and the duration reduced.

Hummingbard Removes all enemy buffs and one team debuff, plus heals allies for 70 % PWR. In comparison even the ant has half that heal potency, in addition to a decent attack, buffs attack and defence and also removes one team debuff. The heal potency should be increased to 80-100 %, or add a buffs or mend to compete with the butterfly.

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Bragjul
Bragjul


Adventuring Hero
Proud Leader of DARK LORDS
posted August 29, 2017 11:40 AM

Galaad said:

@Bruk I fear that would make rezzers too unreliable, and imagine how irritating would be to fail a resurrection between two stunlocks.



I also think is too much to add a failing chance for the resurrection.
I keep my suggestion to limit somehow the heal amount that comes together with the resurrection(only limit the heal for the resurrected unit).
A resurrected unit should not be able to recover more then 25-30-35% HP when bring back to life.

Resurrecting and full HP for the resurrected unit is waaay too overpowered. Limiting the HP recover to a 25%~35% would nerf it a bit.

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Bragjul
Bragjul


Adventuring Hero
Proud Leader of DARK LORDS
posted August 29, 2017 11:52 AM

Brukernavn said:

Anyway, back to the point. Other creatures that could use a buff:

Jellyfish Genius Attacks 6 random enemies for 40 % PWR each. This damage output is less than most medium creatures have against a single enemy target, which is much more useful. It also has a 40 % chance to inflict 20 % poison damage for 6 turns. The poison damage should be increased and the duration reduced.


Hmm I don't think the damage output is small.. 6 random enemies for 40% pwr that is 240% PWR dmg randomly
and let's say 3 out of the 6 hits will poison as well: that will add  3x 20% x 6rounds= 3x120% PWR
In total will be  240% + 360% PWR as random dmg. Is pretty strong IF you also have a detonate creature to detonate all that dmg.

The issue here could be the case when the hits are targeting the same creature. It will apply the poison only once, since again the same old issue: poison not stacking.

So adding the detonate ability to more creatures, or to jelly fish itself could be a nice buff.


Brukernavn said:

Hummingbard Removes all enemy buffs and one team debuff, plus heals allies for 70 % PWR. In comparison even the ant has half that heal potency, in addition to a decent attack, buffs attack and defence and also removes one team debuff. The heal potency should be increased to 80-100 %, or add a buffs or mend to compete with the butterfly.

I agree, adding a buff together with a stronger heal could make her useful. As it is currently, is almost totally useless.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted September 04, 2017 10:06 AM
Edited by Galaad at 10:07, 04 Sep 2017.

@Bragjul

Nah Jellyfish sucks (at least in defense). I don't have one but I can safely ignore it everytime I encounter it so that should say.

Not all rezzers bring back at full HP btw, for instance not the case of Astral, it brings back not that much without multipliers, and an Astral suffering a Statue fatigue is almost useless. Also most rezzers gets one-shoted by their off-color.

I was thinking of the Haunted Marionette too and in general most units with a fatigue debuff, as anything below 60% seems too small from my impression.
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Bragjul
Bragjul


Adventuring Hero
Proud Leader of DARK LORDS
posted September 04, 2017 10:59 AM
Edited by Bragjul at 11:15, 04 Sep 2017.

Galaad said:
@Bragjul

I was thinking of the Haunted Marionette too and in general most units with a fatigue debuff, as anything below 60% seems too small from my impression.


I just mentioned Haunted Marionette in my first post, her debuff is nice but too bad its survivability sucks...
____________________
Anyone had the chance to test if 'Cleanse' works for the defending creatures?
For stuns I am sure that cleanse it is not working. What about the silence, can it be cleansed? We should add this to bug reports.

For example:
- A player attacks your dungeon and stuns/silence one of your units.
- next turn, another of your defending units casts an ability that 'Cleanse'
- What should happen with your stunned/silenced unit? - remove the extra rounds (due to the stun) / remove the silence?

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