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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Sorcery specialists VS damage spell specialists
Thread: Sorcery specialists VS damage spell specialists
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted November 28, 2018 02:23 PM

Sorcery specialists VS damage spell specialists

Hello everyone

I always found damage spell specialists pretty boring compared to Sorcery specialists. For example why would I choose Septienna, when I could have Sandro, Septienna only buffs Death Ripple while Sandro buffs all damage spells.
The damage spell specialists feels kinda boring compared to Sorcery specialists, because they are locked to use that specific spell only if they want bonus. They do have one advantage over Sorcery specialists though, they start with an offensive spell, unlike Sorcery specialists which starts with a non-damaging level 1 spell.
I'm not saying every damage spell specialist should be turned in to a Sorcery specialist, as that would mean Inferno and Necropolis would have 3 Sorcery specialists each, which would also be a bit boring.
Now the good damage spell specialists include Deemer and Aislinn (Meteor Shower) and perhaps Solmyr, (Chain Lightning, but Chain Lightning is a bit expensive) but what about heroes like Adelaide, (Frost Ring) Xarfax, (Fireball) or Ciele (Magic Arrow, yes I know she is good at the beginning of the game, but as soon as she learns Ice Bolt or Lightning Bolt, her special seems kinda useless to me.)
Castle, Rampart, Tower and Conflux lack a Sorcery specialist and Adelaide, (Frost Ring) Alagar (Ice Bolt) and Solmyr (Chain Lightning) and maybe Ciele (Magic Arrow) would actually be perfect candidates "to be promoted" to Sorcery specialists, they would just have to start with a non-damaging level 1 spell instead.
Another option would be that damage spell specialists boosted the entire magic school of damage spells, for example Solmyr, (Chain Lightning) would also buff Magic Arrow, Lightning Bolt, Destroy Undead. (and Titan's Lightning Bolt)
Another disadvantage damage spell specialists have is, if you get an elemental orb of a different magic school, for example why would I cast Frost Ring, if I could cast Meteor Shower, which is even more powerful because I had the earth orb?
The best damage spells seems to be Armageddon, Implosion, Meteor Shower and Chain Lightning and if you have any of them, there is little reason to cast other damage spells.

What do you think about all this?

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phe
phe


Famous Hero
Life and Freedom
posted November 28, 2018 02:42 PM
Edited by phe at 20:50, 28 Nov 2018.

All these tiny damage spell specialist(Magic Arrow, Fireball, Icebolt, Frost Ring, Death Ripple, Fire Wall) could have their special spell free to cast like Titan's Bolt after they use them 100 times...

Also Meteor Shower and Chain Lightning specialist could have free cast of their special spell if mana depleted but only every 3-4 rounds...
Also buff/debuff spell specialists could have free cast of their special spell if mana depleted but only every 3-4 rounds(amount of round to cast again proportional to amount of HP affected)...
By the way...heroes with Expert Fire Magic could have free cast of Fire Wall and Land Mine...

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted November 28, 2018 03:00 PM

Meh, grinding mentality.

I am a little curious what the actual spell buffs are in spell specialists. I remember that the spell effect is supposed to be better vs lower tier units but never checked beyond that.
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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted November 28, 2018 03:11 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 15:11, 28 Nov 2018.

Elvin said:
Meh, grinding mentality.

What do you mean?, a Fireball/Frost Ring specialist is rarely useful, a Sorcery specialist is better.
The only real point of a damage spell specialist, is to grab their spell with Scholar, not much point in maining them except for maybe Deemer, Aislinn and Solmyr.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted November 28, 2018 04:45 PM

No disagreement. I was referring to the idea of achieving anything by casting a spell x times.
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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted November 28, 2018 05:13 PM
Edited by Maurice at 18:42, 28 Nov 2018.

Elvin said:
Meh, grinding mentality.

I am a little curious what the actual spell buffs are in spell specialists. I remember that the spell effect is supposed to be better vs lower tier units but never checked beyond that.


Check the "How to edit HotA" thread. I once elaborated on this, see this post.

Quote:
After my previous exploration of the Heroes3 exe file, I stumbled across the subroutine that handles Hero Spell specialities. Curious as ever, I decided to explore its effects and how the sometimes cryptic descriptions of those respective Heroes actually work out ingame. The results are interesting.

Basically, there are several spell categories. I'll discuss each individually.

Static buffs: general
In this category, the spells Bloodlust (Ash, Inteus), Precision (Zubin), Weakness (Cuthbert, Olema, Mirlanda), Stone Skin (Xsi, Darkstorn, Merist, Labetha), Prayer (Loynis) and Haste (Cyra, Terek, Brissa) are grouped with the same effective benefit.

The bonus provided is a flat one, based on the Tier of the monster they're buffing (or in the case of Weakness, debuffing). This bonus is added to the effect the spell already has on whatever it is cast on.

Tier 1 & 2: +3
Tier 3 & 4: +2
Tier 5 & 6: +1
Tier 7: no additional effect

The specific bonus type depends on the spell. Bloodlust and Weakness both affect ATK, Precision affects Ranged ATK, Stone Skin affects DEF, Prayer affects ATK, DEF and Speed altogether and Haste affects Speed.

As can be seen, these spells have the greatest effect on lower Tier creatures. The flat bonus can be found in a data string, located within the .exe file. It can be found from address 0x0023EAA8h onwards and reads as follows: 03 00 00 00 03 00 00 00 02 00 00 00 02 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00. Each monster Tier effect is 4 bytes, starting with Tier 1, going up to Tier 7.

Static buffs: Slayer
Slayer (Coronius) is pretty much the same as the above buffs, but has a different gradient. It can be found from address 0x0023EAC4h onwards. As can be seen, it's a neighbor to the above string and reads 04 00 00 00 03 00 00 00 02 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00. Translating this to a flat bonus per monster Tier, we get the following:

Tier 1: +4 ATK
Tier 2: +3 ATK
Tier 3: +2 ATK
Tier 4: +1 ATK
Tier 5, 6 and 7: no bonus.

Specific spells: Fortune
Fortune (Melodia, Daremyth) simply gets maximized off at a value of 3, regardless of spell school level. As per the SPTRAITS file, the bonus for Fortune is as follows:

Unskilled: +1 Luck
Basic: +1 Luck
Advanced: +2 Luck
Expert: +2 Luck

When the game considers the Hero specialisation, it simply adds a bonus equal to (3 - SkillBonus). In other words, writing the total formula down, the effect equates to:
Fortune effect = SkillBonus (see table directly above) + (3 - SkillBonus)
Getting rid of the brackets and performing the subtraction yields a simple:
Fortune effect = +3 Luck.

The value of 03 from the (3 - SkillBonus) part can be found at address 0x000E62CEh. Increase it to increase the effective bonus to Luck ... although, given that Luck caps at +3, raising the cap is relatively pointless.

Specific spells: Fire Wall
Fire Wall (Luna) simply has its damage doubled. As a specialty effect, the damage component is just added to it again. No address to easily manipulate for this spell, however.

Specific spells: Disrupting Ray
Disrupting Ray (Aenain) has a flat +2 bonus to DEF reduction when cast. The value of 02 can be found at address 0x000E62E6h. Increasing or decreasing it has an effect that doesn't need further explanation.

Specific spells: Magic Arrow
Magic Arrow (Ciele) is the second damage Spell that has its own bonus regulation. In this case, as bonus the damage is effectively increased by 50%. The game does this by simply taking the spell damage, dividing it by 2 (through a register shift of the variable holding the amount of damage, so nothing to easily edit within the exe) and adding that on top of the spell damage.

Spells: general formula
All other spells follow a specific formula to calculate their bonus. They come in two forms:

Non-damaging spells:
Bless (Adela)
Cure (Uland)
Animate Dead (Thant)
Resurrection (Alamar, Jeddite)
Hypnotize (Astral)

Damaging spells:
Chain Lighting (Solmyr)
Death Ripple (Septienna)
Fireball (Xarfax)
Frost Ring (Adelaide)
Ice Bolt (Alagar)
Inferno (Xyron)
Meteor Shower (Aislinn, Deemer)

The base effect of these spells is calculated as SpellPower * Effective Power (found in the SPTRAITS file for each spell) + Schoollevel Effect. For example, Magic Arrow has an Effective Power of 10, and an additional Power based on Spell School of 10 (unskilled), 10 (Basic), 20 (Advanced) or 30 (Expert). As such, for a Hero with an Advanced Magic School and 10 spell Power, the Magic Arrow deals 10 * 10 + 20 = 120 damage.

Note that this damage is further augmented by effects such as Sorcery or Artifacts (like the four Orbs for the four Elements), before the Hero Specialty bonus is calculated.

Once this Hero Specialty bonus is calculated, it is done based on the following formula:

Bonus = ROUND_UP(SpellEffect * 0.03 * TRUNC((Hero Level) / (Creature Level + 1)))

As you can see, Creature Level plays a role: the higher the Creature Level, the lower the overall bonus will be. For most creatures, the Creature Level is 1 less than the Tier at which they can be recruited (essentially, it's counted up from 0 instead of 1).

As an example, let's take Alagar at level 10, with 10 Spell Power. With Expert Water Magic School, but excluding his Bonus, his Ice Bolt would do 250 damage. Let's say he casts it on a Level 1 creature (i.e. Tier 2). The Bonus then becomes 250 * 0.03 * TRUNC(10 / 2) = 37,5, which is rounded up to 38. Against a Level 1 creature, in this particular case, his Ice Bolt deals 288 damage.

Now let's assume a Level 6 creature instead. The calculation then becomes 250 * 0.03 * TRUNC(10 / 7) = 7,5, which is rounded up to 8. Against a Level 6 creature, in this particular case, his Ice Bolt deals 258 damage.

The 01 value from (Creature Tier + 1) can be found at address 0x000E6309h, while the 0.03 is found through a reference. At address 0x000E631Dh and further is the string DC 0D 08 AC 63 00, where the bolded part is a memory reference in little Endian. Inverting it, the pointer is to address 0x0063AC08h during runtime, which is 0x00400000h higher than where it's in the exe itself. As such, the value the pointer is aiming at can be found at address 0x0023AC08h within the exe. The string there reads B8 1E 85 EB 51 B8 9E 3F, which is the hexadecimal representation of 0.03. Surrounding addresses (8 bytes each) contain other values:

0x0023ABF8h: 7B 14 AE 47 E1 7A C4 3F = 0.16
0x0023AC00h: 8F C2 75 3D 00 00 00 00 (not a proper Double, it's a Floating Point value, of 0.06)
0x0023AC08h: B8 1E 85 EB 51 B8 9E 3F = 0.03
0x0023AC10h: B8 1E 85 EB 51 B8 8E 3F = 0.015
0x0023AC18h: 9A 99 99 99 99 99 F1 3F = 1.1
0x0023AC20h: 33 33 33 33 33 33 F3 3F = 1.2
0x0023AC28h: 00 00 00 00 00 00 08 40 = 3.0
0x0023AC30h: 00 00 00 00 00 40 7F 40 = 500.0
0x0023AC38h: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 = 0.0
0x0023AC40h: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 40 = 2.0
0x0023AC48h: 00 00 00 00 00 00 14 40 = 5.0
0x0023AC50h: 00 00 00 00 00 00 F0 3F = 1.0
0x0023AC58h: 9A 99 99 99 99 99 A9 3F = 0.05

By changing the memory location pointer, another value for the 0.03 multiplier can be chosen. It's not recommended to change the actual hexadecimal double representations, as the game refers to these values from different locations within the exe.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted November 28, 2018 05:39 PM

The spell improvements granted by specialization are usually a joke (with a few notable exceptions like Adela) - the main bonus is starting with the spell. Like, starting with Animate dead for Thant. Pretty neat to have it guaranteed from the 1st day.
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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted November 28, 2018 06:48 PM

Doomforge said:
... the main bonus is starting with the spell.


I tend to agree. I've played numerous games where I ended up with a secondary character that had at least Advanced Wisdom and Expert Scholar, so all Spell Specialists could be "leeched" for their spells and have it distributed to my main Heroes.

Works best with the Tavern Hiring part of the HD mod for instance.

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rerryr
rerryr


Promising
Known Hero
posted November 28, 2018 08:33 PM

phe said:
All these tiny damage spell specialist(Magic Arrow, Fireball, Icebolt, Frost Ring, Death Ripple) could have their special spell free to cast like Titan's Bolt after they use them 100 Times....


well that would not be a very good motivation, grinding 100 times is way to much to just save 10 spell points in combat.

imo it would be fair if they are allowed to cast their special spell on top of other spells, at least for buff specialists. Maybe 1 extra time per combat.

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phe
phe


Famous Hero
Life and Freedom
posted November 28, 2018 08:54 PM
Edited by phe at 21:02, 28 Nov 2018.

rerryr said:
phe said:
All these tiny damage spell specialist(Magic Arrow, Fireball, Frost Ring, Death Ripple) could have their special spell free to cast like Titan's Bolt after they use them 100 Times....


well that would not be a very good motivation, grinding 100 times is way to much to just save 10 spell points in combat.

imo it would be fair if they are allowed to cast their special spell on top of other spells, at least for buff specialists. Maybe 1 extra time per combat.


100 Times is just first thought and example…
I would prefer
36 times for Fireball, Inferno, Fire Wall, Death Ripple
49 for Magic Arrow, Frost Ring...  
and so on...

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted November 28, 2018 08:59 PM

Still kill it with fire. Grinding as a mentality should die.
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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted November 28, 2018 11:48 PM

Elvin said:
Still kill it with fire. Grinding as a mentality should die.

Yeah I agree, spamming the same spell over and over, just so you can spam it even more does'nt sound very fun. The damage spells should be worth casting reasonably often anyway. (Which currently only Meteor Shower and Chain Lightning are, unless fighting Water or Fire Elementals where Fire or Water spells does double damage.)

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted November 30, 2018 06:14 PM

Grinding doesn't belong in this kind of game (where you start fresh every map).

If you could keep your heroes, it would still be a chore but at least it wouldn't be a pointless chore.
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Hourglass
Hourglass


Adventuring Hero
posted December 01, 2018 04:16 PM

I don't think there's anything wrong with most of the dmg spell specialists. I understand that in the long run, sorcery will outclass the benefits of having a damage spell speaciality. However, I kinda find playing as Solmyr, Aislin etc. kinda rewarding in the early game, since you have a "ace in your sleeve"-kinda feel, and you can occasionally use it to your advantage and deal with creatures you wouldn't normally be able beat.

Yeah, maybe those heroes would not win any prizes, but that can be said about most of the other magic heroes. Where do we actually need Disrupting ray, Stone skin or Luck spell spealiasist for example?

IMO there's a place for every AOE spell spealist in the game, since dealing multiple stacks with one spell is both handy and unique enough in my eyes. Maybe Xarfax could specialise in something else, since Inferno has both Inferno spell and Fireball speacialist. They're maybe a bit too similiar, and Inferno is more appealing to me thanks to it's big effect area.

Septieanna is for sure the worst hero in this group, but that's more an issue in the spell itself. And I would say, Deathe Ripple kinda deserves (and needs) a spesiaslist, since only the only a necro has that spell in their mage guild.

I get what you say about Ciele (Magic arrow), but I think she has her place in the game. I would agree if she would be part of any other town, but since Conflux has access to Magic university, Ciele can easily learn all 4 magic schools to make her arrow to be very cheap to cast.

So, we're left with Alagar(Ice bolt) I think? I agree, he doesn't do anything too special, and thus isn't really fun to play with either. But I would still say, that there are magic heroes far worse and way less interresting than he is.

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