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| Thread: The Real & the "mathematical world" are both DISCRETE |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Gandalf196
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posted August 30, 2020 08:23 PM |
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JollyJoker
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posted August 30, 2020 08:51 PM |
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"Em" is doing the discussion in the comment section. Note, that his second comment from one and a half year ago hasn't been answered by the author of the article - who in my opinion is doing the mathematical equivalent of ranting, if anything. No idea what exactly his problem is, but it seems he's had an idea and is somewhat stoned by it.
I mean, you can't just write some stuff when you want to be taken seriously. I do that here, you, maybe, a couple others who may have some inkling what this is all about, having studied math (I did, a couple of semesters), but not nearly the capacity to prove stuff or argue within the boundaries of mathematical proof. This guy should have that.
But he doesn't.
Why would anyone take this seriously?
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted August 31, 2020 06:23 PM |
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To much teories is easy way to madness. Réalité des choses is a base. Another way is road to intelectual deafeat.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 31, 2020 08:55 PM |
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"Réalité des choses" is something we try to understand. Mathematics do help us with that, but the reason why they do help us is the fact that they are completely independent of it, because they are just a tool that can be used to describe things no matter what "Réalité des choses" actually is.
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Baronus
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posted September 01, 2020 12:03 PM |
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Tools existing cmpletly independent of us which we didnt create. So ist objective reality we must respect.
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted September 01, 2020 12:23 PM |
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Math is not a discovery, it is an invention. That’s what the article refers to as Platonism, treating math as if it is a discovery of some ideal realm. Math is invented ard adjusted according to empirical data.
____________
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JollyJoker
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posted September 01, 2020 01:19 PM |
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"Adjusted according to empirical data"?
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artu
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posted September 01, 2020 01:29 PM |
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If existing math fails to explain recent discoveries, they come up with new math that does.
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JollyJoker
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posted September 01, 2020 03:07 PM |
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted September 01, 2020 03:16 PM |
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JollyJoker
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posted September 01, 2020 03:27 PM |
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Hm.
Imaginary numbers are the solution to the equation type.
X*X + Y = 0, Y € N =/0
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artu
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posted September 01, 2020 03:30 PM |
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@JJ
I have already shared this article a while back, you may recall because I remember you commenting on it, it was a different link but the article is the same: Link
Quote:
The non-Platonist view is that, first, all mathematical models are approximations of reality. Second, our models fail, they go through a process of revision, and we invent new mathematics as needed. Analytical mathematical expressions are a product of the human mind, tailored for the mind. Because of our limited brainpower we seek out compact elegant mathematical descriptions to make predictions. Those predictions are not guaranteed to be correct, and experimental verification is always required. What we have witnessed over the past few decades, as transistor sizes have shrunk, is that nice compact mathematical expressions for ultra small transistors are not possible. We could use highly cumbersome equations, but that isn't the point of mathematics. So we resort to computer simulations using empirical models. And this is how much of cutting edge engineering is done these days.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
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posted September 01, 2020 04:59 PM |
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It's a strange article.
I disagree with a couple of things, and I would still like an example for discoveries being made and new math being "invented".
Mathematics are not "discovered", but developed (from what is known). If it's new and "significant", it's still developed, but from what is known to hitherto unthought-of things. Benoit Mandelbrot writes in his foreword to Fractal Geometry of Nature that Fractal Geometry is the morphology of the amorph and something mathematicians had been shying away from for some time (to busy themselves with).
I mean, you need to be a mathematician to think about a question of compound interest and ask yourself, hm, what may be the limes of (1 + 1/n)^n, finding e in the process. Invention? Discovery? Development?
Ultimately, math is a language and works like a language.
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artu
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posted September 01, 2020 06:55 PM |
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Edited by artu at 20:11, 01 Sep 2020.
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A language is not something you discover either, it doesnt exist without you. If math is not invented, what does negative numbers stand for in nature for instance, they just represent quantities, but we could have also calied -273.15 C (coldest tempature in the universe) zero C, (another name for the coldest tempature is actually absolute zero), if something you develop exists with you only and doesnt correspond to anything in the physical world, it’s an invention. An invention can be abstract, symphonic structure is also an invention.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Baronus
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posted September 01, 2020 07:36 PM |
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Edited by Baronus at 19:44, 01 Sep 2020.
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Baronus
So if someone invent 2 +2 = 5 its too true?!
:0)))
Yes -273 degrees is only language. In fact its probably 0.
Its your mistake. Of course sign look 1234678 is human creation BUT IDEA OF 12345679 is independent true! Human creation is small part of maths major things are constant laws given by Creator.
Yes shadows in the moonlight on mirror. Plato ideas concept is very wise. Our making is poor but behind this is true world!
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted September 01, 2020 07:45 PM |
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JollyJoker
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posted September 01, 2020 08:02 PM |
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I said, it's not DISCOVERED (not, it's not invented). Mathematics as a whole is an invention of the human mind, the basic ideas behind it, the rule sets, the grammar and a basic vocabulary, if you want to. The basic ideas. The rest is development, and sometimes that development includes the inventions of new vocabulary.
However, in mathematics things aren't just "invented" - you must prove that your new developments are "valid" (which often means, that they are "consistent" and so on), but that means, you must obviously develop the proof from things that are known.
Take relatively new stuff like group theory. History says that one root was the quest for solutions of polynomial equations. From then on it's basically development work, and a lot of it. You wouldn't call group theory an invention.
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artu
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posted September 01, 2020 08:13 PM |
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Yeah, I know what you said but it rather sounded like, “yes, it is not discovered but it is not invented either, it is developed.” It kind of rang like you were aiming for a nuance between something that is invented and something that is developed.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Baronus
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posted September 01, 2020 08:56 PM |
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I see its hard. Of course big part of Maths is human look. Look for what? For REAL REALITY! Ale maths theories must have verification by objective constant laws which is smiply symbolised by 2+2=4. Never 5. These laws are always the same. We cant nothing move. We dont know a lot eg. Have Goedel or Banach teories true objects? Or maybe are only fiction? Probably behind them is something real. But some ideas are only fiction. If something can be thinked it doesnt mean it can exist. As in all human activity. We can think about bike ride on Mars but its impossible.
Most interesting are these constant laws. And Who give it?
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JollyJoker
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posted September 01, 2020 09:04 PM |
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What I wanted to say is, that since mathematics are pursued SYSTEMATICALLY, it's ONE invention that is constantly developed and expanded.
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