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| Thread: Is using the Knowledge stat for spell learning a bad idea? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Mystic_Genie
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 02, 2019 11:13 AM |
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mvassilev said:
I agree that H1 may have been on the right track.
Crazy idea: Knowledge should affect how many individual spells a hero can know at a time...
That...has some merit. It does technically add some extra busywork since you'd need to pick and chose the spells you add in your book as opposed to having that happen automatically, but on the plus side it's something that potentially scales better into the higher levels depending on how big the number of spells are in the game.
But this is making me realize that the problem with my idea is the fact that I'd just be moving the goalpost on how much knowledge you want before you're "done" with it, which still would only be a problem knowledge has.
Ok, I want to propose one more standalone idea. What if Knowledge worked the same as it does now but it also influences the mana regeneration for heroes outside of a town? Basically you regain some mana every day that's scales with knowledge...say one mana for every point of knowledge (Which should effectively translate to 10% of a heroes maximum pool)
It would let high knowledge players be more reckless with their spell casting even if the spells wouldn't be as effective.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 02, 2019 11:38 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 11:49, 02 Sep 2019.
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And then what, if your knowledge is insufficient you get micromanagement for which spells will be active in your spellbook and which aren't? That doesn't sound very enjoyable.
I don't see the problem with knowledge working as mana pool and replenishment but if we wanted to improve it we could add some minor magic protection every 10 points.
Mystic_Genie said:
What if Knowledge worked the same as it does now but it also influences the mana regeneration for heroes outside of a town? Basically you regain some mana every day that's scales with knowledge...say one mana for every point of knowledge (Which should effectively translate to 10% of a heroes maximum pool)
That has already been done. Mechanics have evolved since H3.
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Mystic_Genie
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 02, 2019 03:48 PM |
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My bad. Don’t have any excuse for that one, I just had a massive brain fart.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted September 03, 2019 10:12 AM |
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Hm, I think the reason Knowledge feels so out-of-place is that it has only a very limited effect during combat, so if you gain say, 1 or 2 Knowledge between battles, it doesn't feel big in the same way that gain 1 or 2 Attack, Defence or Power does.
So, I'm going to propose a change. Knowledge no longer controls how large your potential mana pool is (that now has its own calculation, based on hero level, certain secondary skills, etc.), but how much spells cost. So higher level spells now cost far more than they used to (Level 1 spells remain the same, but from Level 2 onwards spell mana costs start to rise), but Knowledge progressively reduces that to more manageable levels.
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted September 03, 2019 11:10 AM |
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MattII said:
(Level 1 spells remain the same, but from Level 2 onwards spell mana costs start to rise), but Knowledge progressively reduces that to more manageable levels.
good idea. I like it
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted September 04, 2019 04:05 AM |
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monere said:
good idea. I like it
Thanks. The only problem with it, is that reducing a value sort of means at least an expectation that that skill won't get higher than a particular value...
What would you expect would be the maximum you'd expect a skill to get in a reasonably long game? 10? 15? 20?
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted September 04, 2019 08:19 AM |
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MattII said:
The only problem with it, is that reducing a value sort of means at least an expectation that that skill won't get higher than a particular value...
not sure I understand this phrase. Can you please re-phrase it for my simplistic brain? 
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted September 04, 2019 09:08 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 09:55, 04 Sep 2019.
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monere said:
MattII said:
The only problem with it, is that reducing a value sort of means at least an expectation that that skill won't get higher than a particular value...
not sure I understand this phrase. Can you please re-phrase it for my simplistic brain?
Sure. And formula you have for reducing the cost of a spell, there is going to be a certain number of 'Knowledge' points the formula is optimised towards, below which mana cost for higher level spells is extortionate, and above which the mana cost for those spells is trifling.
The best reasonably simple formula I can come up with is:
Spell Cost = Base Spell Cost * [[100 - Spell Level - Magic School Level] / 100] ^ Knowledge
In this, the 'Base Spell Cost' would be:
Base Spell Cost = Original (from HoMM3) Spell Cost * [1 + Spell Level] / 2
At a Knowledge level of 1, and with no magic skills, Magic Arrow costs 5 (4.95), Fireball costs 29 (29.1), and Armageddon costs 58 (57.6)
At a Knowledge level of 4, and with Basic Fire Magic, those costs are 5 (4.61), 25/26 (25.48, round as preferred) and 49 (48.87)
At a Knowledge level of 8 and with Advanced Fire Magic the costs are 4 (3.92), 20 (19.90) and 37 (36.57)
At a Knowledge level of 13 and with Expert Fire Magic, the costs are 3 (2.94), 13/14 (13.42, round as preferred) and 23/24 (23.36, round as preferred)
Does that seem fair do you think?
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Mystic_Genie
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 04, 2019 12:12 PM |
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Though I can see the logic in magic schools affecting the discount, wouldn't that somewhat railroad players into mostly casting spells belonging to that particular school even if they have access to other spells? Wouldn't a new dedicated skill that adds to the discount be more desirable, since you open up another mage path of casting a lot of high tiered, no mastery spells, for cheap?
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted September 04, 2019 01:27 PM |
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Mystic_Genie said:
Though I can see the logic in magic schools affecting the discount, wouldn't that somewhat railroad players into mostly casting spells belonging to that particular school even if they have access to other spells? Wouldn't a new dedicated skill that adds to the discount be more desirable, since you open up another mage path of casting a lot of high tiered, no mastery spells, for cheap?
The ideas aren't mutually exclusive. And the skills as they are railroad players anyway, so that hasn't changed.
Besides, that was only a slapped-together formula, it'd a lot need more tweaking of the figures and accounting for additional variable before it'd become really workable.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 05, 2019 01:41 AM |
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Elvin said:
And then what, if your knowledge is insufficient you get micromanagement for which spells will be active in your spellbook and which aren't? That doesn't sound very enjoyable.
It could be done without micromanagement. Maybe once you spend some Knowledge points to learn a spell, you know it forever, and can never get rid of it (except at a Memory Mentor or something). Does your barbarian want to learn all of your Mage Guild's Level 1 spells, or save for Level 5 in a couple of turns? Choose wisely.
It also makes sense in terms of flavor: Knowledge is how much you can know, which is a clearer connection than your maximum mana or how much you can cast a spell before forgetting it.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Skeggy
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 05, 2019 03:54 PM |
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It is not quite clear how light-dark opposition can provide such intense justification for selective affection of mass spells when at the same time destructive and summoning mass spells(firewall) gives damage to all units indiscriminately.
It’s like light and dark are somehow supposed to be more intelligent principles and destruction and summoning non-intelligent even though fire-trap is hostile-only and that summoning principle supposed to be an intelligent principle in general magical arrangement.
I suppose it’s justified to assume that destructive principle should not discriminate friends from hostiles, but that’s ok only if we assume that destructive principle is more elemental-evoking than authentic magic, and that would imply that destruction is a more primitive sub-branch of summoning and that inferno should have a certain level of fire-resistance.
There could be more intelligent discourse for future games. For instance, level of knowledge could provide distinction from destructive magic affects all or just enemy units, regardless of spell price principle that could be defined using some other game-relevant elements (spell price is another subject altogether). Also, knowledge could redefine the meaning of magical resistance: the higher the knowledge, the less the resistance of enemy units for all magic schools. Knowledge could become a key ingredient for creating a magical hero as an active author and carrier of authentic differentiation of how spells should work and why they work that way.
It's good that spell schools have levels and that many tactical spells are approachable to all heroes. H5.5 did a remarkable selection concerning that. Higher spells should always be a consequence of significant investment, whether in skill points or gold coins, but then hero only has access to zero-level spell effects (SKILL_NONE) of the higher spells.
Limitations of how many low-level tactical spells heroes can wield don't provide any kind of meaningful base for quality-selection, they provide only some kind of "I told you" snow and are a game-ruining experience. That snow should be banned from the gaming world in general.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 05, 2019 04:36 PM |
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mvassilev said:
It could be done without micromanagement. Maybe once you spend some Knowledge points to learn a spell, you know it forever, and can never get rid of it (except at a Memory Mentor or something). Does your barbarian want to learn all of your Mage Guild's Level 1 spells, or save for Level 5 in a couple of turns? Choose wisely.
So you keep a scrutizing eye on every spell that appears, hunting for the most crucial and rejecting the rest? Ugh. Different kind of micromanagement and rl memorizing.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 06, 2019 03:46 AM |
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Yeah, it's not a perfect idea. Unless you also tweaked how Mage Guilds worked so they shared all of the spells that you had "discovered" so you could learn them from any town you own (assuming you had a Mage Guild of the appropriate level) - so if Town 1 knows Magic Arrow, Town 2 automatically knows it as well, for example. The bigger problem isMystic_Genie said:
moving the goalpost on how much knowledge you want before you're "done" with it
because once you know all the good spells, additional Knowledge points stop being useful.
Different idea: If Spell Power represents how strong your spells are, Knowledge represents how well you understand them. Heroes with higher Knowledge are more efficient, which in gameplay is represented as them being able to move faster after casting a spell (with heroes having their own turns in an initiative system like H5's). So instead of replacing H2/3 Wisdom, it's H5 Sorcery. This would scale indefinitely, so even going from 30 to 31 Knowledge would be an improvement.
The numbers would have to be carefully chosen to prevent this from being overpowered. Don't want some hero who got lucky with an artifact to cast Implosion 10 turns in a row. 
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Eccentric Opinion
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 06, 2019 07:43 AM |
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That would only work if sorcery did not exist as a skill. Otherwise stacking atb values is a terrible idea, either they'll get out of hand or the individual bonuses will be so tiny that they won't have any noticeable effect. I remember how H6 gave 2.5% per stat and it was so disappointing, knowledge would have to be even less :/
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted September 06, 2019 12:50 PM |
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You could also have it that each Hero can learn all spells (based off of Wisdom, as needed) but that you can only have a number of them combat-ready depending on Knowledge. Higher level spells require more Knowledge. Spells not selected from the spellbook that way are not available during combat.
Note that this should not concern Adventure Map spells.
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 06, 2019 10:04 PM |
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Elvin said:
That would only work if sorcery did not exist as a skill.
Yeah, this enhancement to Knowledge would have to replace Sorcery, just like the other ideas in this thread would replace Wisdom (or the H4/5-equivalents). Given the many spell-enhancing skills we've had, Knowledge would probably have to absorb and replace one of them to become more useful.
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Eccentric Opinion
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted September 07, 2019 03:39 PM |
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Check RC12 update on MMH55, I believe this to the best way to make knowledge as important as the other 3 skills. Here it goes:
Attack - improves army damage output
Defense - improves army endurance
Spellpower - Improves spell effectiveness per cast
Knowledge - improves mage endurance and the ability to cast more high level spells.
When reading the above have in mind the following spell mechanic:
- Mass spells cost 4x times the mana of single spells
- Destruction spells mana cost vastly increase with their capability, basically you have very strong spells but on very steep mana cost, to be able to maintain constant casting hero should invest in knowledge.
So having in mind the above a mage should invest in Spellpower and Knowledge but it is a balancing act, you cant just have vast amount of spellpower without the mana, nor the other way around. The player combat strategy should revolve on casting that allows hero self-sufficiency and also is not hard to replenish in-between battles.
The system above also deprives Might heroes becoming too strong of a magicians at late game. So this classes strength revolves around other skills and tactical approaches, which is great because it makes the system a feast of diversity and equilibrium or at least it tries its best.
Can we consider it perfect? I believe not but it is as close as it gets for the moment.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted September 09, 2019 02:56 AM |
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That doesn't solve the biggest problem (as I see it) with Knowledge, namely, its disconnect from immediacy. The other skills, Attack, Defense and Power, they all have an immediate effect on combat in their own ways. Knowledge only does so when your mana runs out. To really bring it in line with the others you have to find some way to make increasing Knowledge about more than just having more mana.
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Mystic_Genie
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 09, 2019 10:00 AM |
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Well..in theory it should be.
In a vacuum, a hero with more knowledge should cast more expensive spells while a hero with more power should cast weaker spells but get a greater mileage out of them.
In practice spells are learned via skills, they don't get more expensive with mastery, and some aren't even that expensive even at tier 5...so knowledge only helps you cast a spell multiple times, while power let's you cast the same spell with it's power amplified for no additional cost of mana or turns.
Definitely got to check MMH5.5 when I have the chance, it sounds like it's on the right track at the least.
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