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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Thane and Iona
Thread: Thane and Iona This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · «PREV
OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted September 29, 2019 12:07 PM
Edited by OhforfSake at 13:11, 30 Sep 2019.

Otuken said:
Low level creature specialists are ALWAYS better than high level creature specialists at developing their respective creatures.


It's a rule of thumbs, but there are exceptions, which have already been mentioned in this thread (Tamika vs. Straker, iIRC). A complete list of +att/+def compared to relevant levels was posted in one or more threads, which clearly showed just how incredible Galthran is, and that Shakti is definitely an amazing hero, I'll perhaps later edit this post with a link to that thread when I find it. (Edit: Here is the link, Creature Specialist bonus: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jCj66G01fhV3Egyl5dcZ0s_dwNPeT_e6IdYZrEjb9YA/edit#gid=4 from this thread, all credits to Hellburn for his great work .)

Otuken said:
For example Nymus's +2 attack boost to pit fiends/lords would be not equal to Ignatius's +2 attack boost to Imps.

+2 attack bonus to pits mean just boosting %15 of their offense power while +2 attack bonus is %100 boost for Imps' offensive power!!!


But that is not how the math of this game works? To make it obvious without going through the damage formula, imagine you go from equal attack and defense to +1 attack, yet you don't suddenly get an infinite boost in offensive power.
Your points about health artifacts is true though, because of the formula:

total hp = unit hp * stack

So if your stack is large even a low increase of unit hp can increase total hp tremendously, while if your stack only has few numbers, an increase in unit hit points won't change much.

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Otuken
Otuken


Known Hero
posted September 29, 2019 02:31 PM

I still think all creature specialists do boost their respective creatures very little; +2 at/def and +1 speed bonuses are very little for a lvl10 hero though it does not change the fact that low level specialists are better I even noticed it when I played the first times the game

Just think it -hypoetically- you are allowed to just add +1 at/def to any tier of your units. Why would you prefer adding +1 at/def to your high level creatures creatures when they are already strong and +1 at/def is just pale considering their natural strenghtes and pretty low weekly growths and you won't be able to benefit this bonus in early games.


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Hourglass
Hourglass


Known Hero
posted September 30, 2019 12:24 AM

There's a reason why some towns were left without lvl 1 creature speacialists. If tower had a gremlin speacialist, it would likely be the best hero in that town. I think the best idea to resolve this issue would be delete the other hero completely (for the sake of simplicity), and create another hero that would have a non-creature speciality.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 30, 2019 01:01 PM

Also if the amount of starting gremlins were decreased for all Tower heroes?
Perhaps you are right, it's just a little boring with similar heroes like Thane and Iona, Thunar and Erdamon, Jeddite and Alamar, Tamika and Clavius etc.
Conflux is boring in the hero department, Necropolis is not that exciting either...

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted September 30, 2019 01:31 PM

In my opinion now that I have found the link for the creature specialists (see my previous post), the only reason a Gremlin hero would be the best Tower hero, is because Tower in general have bad heroes.

I e.g. don't think it would be overpowered to have a Gremlin specialist if they only come in small stacks similar to Gnolls. Based on my observations, I can only see a little difference between low stack units and high stack units when comparing Drakon's Gnolls with the Hobgoblin of Gretchin (reversed ATT/DEF), though there is a small advantage to the Gnolls, and I am not sure how it is calculated.

Similarly there is a much smaller difference between Galthran's Skeleton's and Shakti's Infernal Troglodytes (equal ATT/DEF), at higher level a tiny advantage for Galthran, again I am not certain why.

In any cases both differences seems insignificant enough to use Ignatius Familiar's as an example of how much of a boost Master Gremlin's would get (both units have equal ATT/DEF), and while the bonus is definitely nice (+1 speed, +1/1 @ lvl 1, +2/2 @ lvl 6, +3/3 @ lvl 11, +4/4 @ lvl 16, +5/5 @ lvl 21, etc.) the bonus itself looks very balanced for creating an interesting and strong hero and not something that would stomp everything else, like e.g. Galthran's huge bonus can do to a huge stack of Skeletons.

Also Gremlins can be used as a final battle if the game lasts only for a short time, but as the weeks pass, they will similarly to Shakti's Troglodytes only be good for a strong opening to the game, and by themselves won't determine a final battle.

Then again some would perhaps argue Tower would be too easy to play with Master Gremlin's getting +2 speed this early, and perhaps that is correct.

In general when it comes to creature specialist, I understand the notion that Master Gremlin can shoot and by themselves Halberdiers and Centaur Captains are the strongest first level units, but if we look at how the game is played, the only level 1 specialist I would think is too OP is Galthran, the Necro first level units have very good ATT/DEF to build up on, and since these are the units they gather, it is a recipe for an OP hero in my opinion. Combine this with the 100% limit to Necromancy, and Galthran also feels like a very obvious choice to me, while for e.g. Rampart I would still prefer other heroes than a Centaur Specialist.
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NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted September 30, 2019 01:43 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 13:47, 30 Sep 2019.

Well, a majority voted to make ONE of them a gremlin specialist. I don't think many cared who they was.

The point is to not have two genie specialists. They could have another specialty as long as it was different. Same with other "repeated" heroes.

The specialty also woudn't have to be same as the normal one either. It could give just gremlins +1 hp, +1 every ten levels to not be OP with archer gremlins.

After all, for example, Conflux's Earth Elemental Specialist does not give the normal bonus but +5 dmg.

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RerryR
RerryR


Promising
Famous Hero
Researching Magic
posted September 30, 2019 03:42 PM

NimoStar said:
Well, a majority voted to make ONE of them a gremlin specialist. I don't think many cared who they was.

The point is to not have two genie specialists. They could have another specialty as long as it was different. Same with other "repeated" heroes.

The specialty also woudn't have to be same as the normal one either. It could give just gremlins +1 hp, +1 every ten levels to not be OP with archer gremlins.

After all, for example, Conflux's Earth Elemental Specialist does not give the normal bonus but +5 dmg.



This!
Unique heroes and a broader range of heroes specialties.
Also remove all 6 Eagle Eye specialists please ^^  

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 30, 2019 03:55 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 15:56, 30 Sep 2019.

There are actually 7 Eagle Eye specialists + Ash that starts with Eagle Eye.
I've tried maining Serena a few times for "fun" and every time she manages to learn exactly 0 spells through Eagle Eye. It does'nt help Tower has so many heroes with Scholar either.

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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted September 30, 2019 04:35 PM
Edited by monere at 16:37, 30 Sep 2019.

phoenix4ever said:
There are actually 7 Eagle Eye specialists + Ash that starts with Eagle Eye.
I've tried maining Serena a few times for "fun" and every time she manages to learn exactly 0 spells through Eagle Eye. It does'nt help Tower has so many heroes with Scholar either.
LOL. Damn you, lucky b4st4rd! You've managed to learn a whooping 0 spells. How does it feel to have so much power?

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 30, 2019 04:57 PM

Like starting with Ballistics, completely useless.
Eagle Eye has managed to work a few times for defending heroes though, but nothing more than 1-3 spells max. and not necessarily of a magic school I want.

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Known Hero
posted September 30, 2019 06:55 PM

phoenix4ever said:
Also if the amount of starting gremlins were decreased for all Tower heroes?



You would rather nerf all other tower heroes for the sake of there being a hero that was never in the game before?

I thought the idea on this topic was to think how to differentiate Iona and Thane. Like creating a reason why you would to pick one over the other. There are other ways of doing that, and most of them don't need any balancing moves for other heroes and for the town itself.

phoenix4ever said:
Perhaps you are right, it's just a little boring with similar heroes like Thane and Iona, Thunar and Erdamon, Jeddite and Alamar, Tamika and Clavius etc.
Conflux is boring in the hero department, Necropolis is not that exciting either...


Conflux was rushed, I wish Hota would completely redesing it in the future. When speaking about Conflux hero desing (or the lack of it), take a look at all their hero biographies. Extremely dull and repeating stories, bah, clearly shows how this town was made in such a hurry.

Jeddite and Alamar are also a problem, but I don't really see any issues with Clavius and Tamika, they have different roles at least. (Clavius being a better being a support hero, and Tamika is one you can think of being your main.)

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 30, 2019 08:16 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 20:18, 30 Sep 2019.

Well I knew there would be coming some comments about a gremlin specialist being OP and I agree if it's starts with 3 stacks of 30-40 gremlins. HotA also nerfed Shakti from 3 stack of 30-40 troglodytes to 3 stacks of 20-30 troglodytes, which is still nice in the beginning.
If any level 1 creatures specialist is OP it's Galthran, which is also (mostly) banned in HotA. Galthran gets the greatest attack and defense bonus of all creature specialists + he makes skeletons, now that is OP.

Yeah clearly Conflux was very rushed, it could have used some more development time.

Tamika and Clavius is exactly the same hero, except for their specialty.

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zmudziak22
zmudziak22


Famous Hero
posted October 05, 2019 04:51 PM

I would reconsider making Torosar as Archery spec for Tower, why? Tower Blacksmiths sells Ammo Cart, so he cannot rebuy it unless he visit war machines shops or visit towns which provides ballista. Second, he doesnt even have artillery skill comparing to other Ballista Heroes. 3rd one, archery suits for Tower(3 shooters), he would be 2nd best hero for Tower(after Neela Armor).

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