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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: DefaultStats and other stuff
Thread: DefaultStats and other stuff
Titanus
Titanus

Tavern Dweller
posted May 26, 2020 04:57 AM

DefaultStats and other stuff

I have a couple of observations to make, regarding the DefaultStats file in RC13:
1. The Child of the Light ability of Pristine Unicorns (Bond of Light in DefaultStats) is nerfed to 1 (Basic Light Magic), compared to 3 originally (Expert Light Magic), yet Pristine Unicorns apply to themselves enemy Light Magic spells still on Expert level.  
2. The Syphon Mana ability of Vermins has always been described as having half the power of the Mana Stealer/Destroyer of Familiars/Imps (and in the original DefaultStats file, the Syphon Mana coefficient was indeed 0.5). In RC13, the coefficient is changed to 0.6, yet, in reality, Syphon Mana has always operated (and still does) at full Mana Stealer/Destroyer power. In my opinion, it's definitely OP, considering Vermins (original stack and gated ones) may systematically activate their ability and drain an enemy hero's mana in no time, if they are in ample numbers. And ample numbers can easily be achieved through the Imp Scavengers ability in multiple Inferno heroes and large maps, along with Imp dwellings, potential second or third Inferno towns and use of the Decree of the Legion artifact(s).
I also object to the potency of Mana Steal per weekly population of 2 itself. Just think about it; 1000 Familiars/Imps/Vermins (amassed between month 2 and 3, give or take) will absorb 2*1000/16=125 enemy hero mana instantly. Gate them, and this number can easily soar to 170+. Let Vermins just use their special ability on their second turn and on, and not attack, bearing in mind the observation mentioned above... do the math... we're talking about enemy hero mana slaughter! In my version of the game, I've reduced Mana Steal per weekly population to 1 (or 0.0625 mana per Familiars/Imps/Vermin), but on the other hand, Mana Steal/Destroy can be used twice per combat, not just once. I've also decreased Familiars/Imps/Vermin's Initiative to 11, instead of 12/13/12. This way, you give the enemy hero more time to formulate a plan of dealing with them, before they cripple him. Syphon Mana, however, still needs fixing; it's just not right!
3. Another hard-coded aspect of the DefaultStats file is the Fog Veil/Storm Wind abilities. In RC13 Storm Wind supposedly reduces enemy fliers' Initiative by -20%, yet Initiative drops only by -10%, no matter how you change the command in the DefaultStats file. For testing purposes, I changed the penalty to 0.9, but the enemy flyer's Initiative decreased by only -10%, as was the case in ToTE originally. By the way, if Fog Veil/Storm Wind can actually be altered, they should be more powerful in my opinion (somewhere in the line of -15% Initiative and -20% damage of enemy ranged creatures for Fog Veil and -15% Initiative and -2 Speed of enemy fliers for Storm Wind).

Something else I've noticed in the last game I've been playing is that, as per RC13 description, all previous resource heroes now increase Tier7 creature production and their specialty doesn't stack with the Divine Guardian ability. Guess what... it does! At least in Ka-Beleth's and Gabrielle's case, but I don't have reason to doubt that this is the case for the rest Tier7 boosting heroes of other factions.
Another observation regarding a hero specialisation in RC13 is that, as per the Flagbearer of Darkness description, friendly creatures enter the battlefield with a boost to their Luck by +1 and by an additional +1, at level 20. Unfortunately, this wasn't the case for the level 20 extra Luck point. I may need further testing to confirm it 100%, but I'm fairly sure that it doesn't work properly.

That's all for the time being... I'd appreciate any feedback .
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zmudziak22
zmudziak22


Supreme Hero
Heroes 3 Fan
posted May 26, 2020 12:18 PM

Some changes to abilities are done with with modified exe, as even they are in defaultstats, power of them are located in exe.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted May 26, 2020 12:28 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 12:40, 26 May 2020.

Thank you for your observations, it is true sometimes defaultstats modifiers don't work, if so another solution needs to be found. I recall syphon mana to work the other way around so 0.6 = 0.4, if growth was increased then the effect is still the same. You shouldn't get so many imps unless on a map with multiple towns and there is no golden value that works with any config. fog veil was already planned to be boosted to 2x 15%. I don't know if storm wind speed nerf can be boosted to compensate the weak ini nerf. luck at level 20 is a stat boost on the hero not an in-battle boost. i will check to make sure the scripts are working.

EDIT: in default stats bond of light is only supposed to be a minimum modifier, i'm not sure you tested the stormwind speed modifier?
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Titanus
Titanus

Tavern Dweller
posted May 27, 2020 03:25 AM

magnomagus said:
Thank you for your observations, it is true sometimes defaultstats modifiers don't work, if so another solution needs to be found. I recall syphon mana to work the other way around so 0.6 = 0.4, if growth was increased then the effect is still the same. You shouldn't get so many imps unless on a map with multiple towns and there is no golden value that works with any config. fog veil was already planned to be boosted to 2x 15%. I don't know if storm wind speed nerf can be boosted to compensate the weak ini nerf. luck at level 20 is a stat boost on the hero not an in-battle boost. i will check to make sure the scripts are working.

EDIT: in default stats bond of light is only supposed to be a minimum modifier, i'm not sure you tested the stormwind speed modifier?


1. Regarding Syphon Mana:
According to my testing, if you change its parameter in DefaultStats, somewhere between 0.5 and 1, Vermins always absorb exactly the same amount of mana from enemy heroes as Familiars/Imps would absorb. Not a percentage of it. BUT... if you changed its parameter somewhere between 0 and 0.49, Vermins would absorb NO mana from enemy heroes. That is, Syphon Mana doesn't work at all.

2. Regarding Imps numbers:
First of all, I want to point out that I have always been a huge fan of very large maps and epic battles. By doing so, I have seen how any aspect of the game works in every phase. And the more I move forward in the time frame, when I start having pretty powerful heroes and solid armies, the more any problematic aspect of the game will start accentuating itself. I can name countless examples, literally. For example, how wrongfully the Conjure Phoenix and the accursed Divine Vengeance spells or the Sorcery skill and its abilities have been structured, how OP the Fierce Retaliation and Whirlwind creature abilities are, how OP the HP mini-artifacts created by Academy heroes are, how OP half or the whole Sar-Isus Regalia is, how underpowered the super artifacts are, and many many more. It's a matter of feeling, first and foremost.
The same concept applies to the Imps case. I've just finished playing a map that I had created in the RMG 2.1 version. (8P-Window -I/XLu, with underground). The map didn't allow town conversion, but allowed conversion of an additional Tier1,2 and 3 dwellings and 3 additional Military Posts of Tier7. The final battle between the last 4 heroes of the last 2 remaining castles, controlled by me, took place in the 33rd week. Granted, I took my time in the last 6 weeks, to visit all stat boosters and Banks and before that, I didn't rush to defeat computer-controlled enemies, as long as they didn't bother me. Do you know how many Vermins I ended up with, taking into account (I stress) the no town conversion aspect, the exploitation of Imp Scavengers ability in 5 out of 6 allowed heroes, one additional Tier1 dwelling and the use of the Decree of the Legion for some time, before I acquired better Legion artifacts? 4815 Vermins, split into 2 equally developed heroes, which means that Imps can be amassed pretty easily to huge numbers, even without town conversions and, as a result, their hard-coded ability becomes extremely problematic. Put in the mix the 2 absorbed mana per Imp weekly population, as per RC13, and you will get a 2*2407/16=300 mana absorption for their first action, after gating, for each army (as I mentioned before, I split the armies between 2 heroes, ergo 2407). The numbers don't lie... Irina's initial mana pool of 597, with Intelligence, mind you, would evaporate in 2 turns at most, if I allowed the 2 mana per Imp weekly population. No golden value you said? maybe not, but this doesn't mean that one should steer clear of it, instead of coming closer.

3. Regarding Fog Veil/Storm Wind:
I tested everything. I altered any parameter in the DefaultStats (Initiative, Speed and Ranged Damage), but the changes weren't reflected in the game. I left it with what the description in RC13 says for Storm Wind only, (because Fog Veil isn't changed, compared to the original setting) and still, nothing. The game ignores all changes and operates as the original ToTE did.

4. Regarding Bond of Light:
Ok now I got it. I tested it the way you mentioned and it is as you say. A corrected 'Child of the Light' description should be added in the next patch though.

5. Regarding Flaggbearer of Darkness:
I'll come back to you on that, because I need to do further testing.

Pleasse, don't forget to check the Tier7-boosting heroes and their compatibility with the Divine Guardian ability. And something else.. the Sar-Isus Regalia must be addressed sometime. +100% mana and Spellpower for casters in the hero's army, with just two artifacts is just too much. In my opinion, there should only be a +50% Spellpower increase and that's it. I'd more than welcome an increase in the casters Spellpower though.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted May 27, 2020 04:22 PM

thank you for your testing,

let me first point out that in toe that calculation would have been 4*2407/16, so it is not as if didn't already nerf it hard. if I would set it to 1*2407/16 for example, you would just get absurdly low numbers for a normal early game amount of 300 imps. Also you say week 33 that is month 8, which is far beyond the amount of game time you can reasonably expect every game mechanic to stay in check. Multiplayer games would never last that long and I'm currently working on a long changelist gathered from multiplayer games and this was never brought up.

I also disagree about the sar-issus, in late game creature spells become very weak quickly and much weaker than the regular creature attack so this is a welcome boost.


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Titanus
Titanus

Tavern Dweller
posted May 29, 2020 04:03 AM

magnomagus said:
thank you for your testing,

let me first point out that in toe that calculation would have been 4*2407/16, so it is not as if didn't already nerf it hard. if I would set it to 1*2407/16 for example, you would just get absurdly low numbers for a normal early game amount of 300 imps. Also you say week 33 that is month 8, which is far beyond the amount of game time you can reasonably expect every game mechanic to stay in check. Multiplayer games would never last that long and I'm currently working on a long changelist gathered from multiplayer games and this was never brought up.

I also disagree about the sar-issus, in late game creature spells become very weak quickly and much weaker than the regular creature attack so this is a welcome boost.




And why is it so imperative for Demonic heroes to draw 2*300/16=37 mana on say week 5-6, instead of half of it? Would it make the kind of a difference to the point that they would certainly lose a battle otherwise? And you mentioned that multiplayer games would never last 8 months. I don't disagree with that. But... what is the average duration of a multiplayer game for you for an XL map and 2 additional town conversions allowed and 2 or 3 Tier1 dwelling conversions, which not uncommon?

As for the Sar-Isus, yes I agree. Creature destructive spells become weak, not late game, but at the onset of middlegame, I would dare say. But on the other hand, I consider the +100% increase of casters' mana and spellpower too much, especially stemming from just 2 relic artifacts. It's a steep boost; it shouldn't be earned that easily. If not +50% and that's it, then maybe +50% for 2 artifacts and +100% for the whole set.
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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted May 29, 2020 10:58 AM

your testing was wrong, familiars drain only half the mana of vermins and vermins can only drain once per battle. 1x 300 is not overpowered in month 8, neither is multiple times 150 since the stack will have long been dealt with before it can draw more than 300.

For multiplayer 3 months is likely max, but I always balance longer if possible, in this case that was possible.

Also divine guardians rule only applies to the hero himself not secondary heroes.
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Gidoza
Gidoza


Famous Hero
posted June 11, 2020 11:08 PM

Titanus said:
magnomagus said:
thank you for your testing,

let me first point out that in toe that calculation would have been 4*2407/16, so it is not as if didn't already nerf it hard. if I would set it to 1*2407/16 for example, you would just get absurdly low numbers for a normal early game amount of 300 imps. Also you say week 33 that is month 8, which is far beyond the amount of game time you can reasonably expect every game mechanic to stay in check. Multiplayer games would never last that long and I'm currently working on a long changelist gathered from multiplayer games and this was never brought up.

I also disagree about the sar-issus, in late game creature spells become very weak quickly and much weaker than the regular creature attack so this is a welcome boost.




And why is it so imperative for Demonic heroes to draw 2*300/16=37 mana on say week 5-6, instead of half of it? Would it make the kind of a difference to the point that they would certainly lose a battle otherwise? And you mentioned that multiplayer games would never last 8 months. I don't disagree with that. But... what is the average duration of a multiplayer game for you for an XL map and 2 additional town conversions allowed and 2 or 3 Tier1 dwelling conversions, which not uncommon?

As for the Sar-Isus, yes I agree. Creature destructive spells become weak, not late game, but at the onset of middlegame, I would dare say. But on the other hand, I consider the +100% increase of casters' mana and spellpower too much, especially stemming from just 2 relic artifacts. It's a steep boost; it shouldn't be earned that easily. If not +50% and that's it, then maybe +50% for 2 artifacts and +100% for the whole set.


I agree with you Titanus that for only 2 Sar-Issus artifacts the bonus shouldn't be granted to creatures.  I'd rather see the two bonuses inverted - grant the power bonus (or whatever) at 2 Sar-Issus artifacts, and grant the creature power/mana bonus at having all 4.

I think the real issue is that only 2 Sar-Issus artifacts, if gotten early (which actually is often easy in my experience), offers WAY too much.  Whereas - in a long game (which needs to be defined by the way - "late game" on one map will mean something completely different on a different map), I won't even be using destructive magic spells at all on creatures even IF I have the Sar-Issus bonus, so it doesn't matter.  As a general rule, games should be balanced for smaller/medium maps where interaction between players can occur within the first couple of weeks of the game.  When it comes to 6+ months maps and masses of units, towns are all built up and have been for ages - the game is most interesting when you don't have all the upgrades and don't have all the items and thus all kinds of variety can occur; that's where attention ought to be focused.

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