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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: Is Chaos Magic more useful than Order Magic?
Thread: Is Chaos Magic more useful than Order Magic?
moarbarmu
moarbarmu

Tavern Dweller
posted June 10, 2020 01:53 AM

Is Chaos Magic more useful than Order Magic?

Is Chaos Magic more useful than Order Magic? I only play with the computer, never other players. I play Equilibris and the original game. To me, Chaos Magic at high levels is better overall but t lower levels, Order Magic is probably better. I see a lot of people say that Order Magic is always better but Chaos Magic at its best is just overpowering. If you are just playing for fun, you can create lvl 70 characters with nwcthoth. I do that and still struggle sometimes. I am not good ate game, but at lvl 70, Chaos Magic seems to rule. At lvl 12 or 15, it is still quite good, but at lvl 10 or lower, Order Magic seems to be better. To me, magic is more fun when I blast my enemies apart, so I play Chaos most of the time. Equilibris makes Might more fun but in the original game, the five schools of magic are all competitive but Might is not really competitive.  I think that Order and Chaos are the strongest schools but I do not play Life that much and I play Nature and Death heroes in Chaos armies. I think that Chaos creates more options than Order Magic does in terms of combat. We have few shooters in our faction but with Chaos Magic, it is not a problem. To me, Order Mages are usually useless except for buffs/debuffs and so if you can get into melee with them, which is not that hard to do you have a chance. Chaos Mages will contribute to your demise and you often can forego Medusae, especially in Equilibris for Minotaur, which can le you shoot the enemy even more.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted June 10, 2020 01:57 AM

That's a fair point, if you manage to level yourself at such levels. However, Order Mages are usually gonna have other magic schools too, so....
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted June 10, 2020 04:06 PM

That wonderful chaos nuker.. he can be hypnotized into nuking his army, right?
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moarbarmu
moarbarmu

Tavern Dweller
posted June 11, 2020 03:25 AM

Make sure to comment on my other thread. I think that my argument there is stronger than here. First of all, I would try to get some Combat levels for Magic Resistance. Second of all, if the argument is that Order is better because it can be combined with other schools, well so can Chaos. First of all, it does seem weird that a lvl 70 hero can be hypnotized with no resistance by a low-level Order Mage. I do not play against other players and the AI does not hypnotize my Chaos Mages. Is there not level-based resistance to low level attack like in other games? That said Magic Resistance is worth it. I like having more than one school, but honestly Chaos Magic plus Combat is awesome. Magic Resistance is essential for Chaos Mage with Armageddon, so normally Hypnotize is not a problem. Do you ever play online with other players? I am curious to how Order v. Chaos works in AI. However,there is a strong argument that massive firepower beats debuffs. Sure, Magic Resistance seems vital in pvp, but if I am playing versus the AI, direct damage is better than debuffs.

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TheUnknown
TheUnknown


Known Hero
posted June 21, 2020 07:54 AM

moarbarmu said:
First of all, it does seem weird that a lvl 70 hero can be hypnotized with no resistance by a low-level Order Mage.


It's like an amateur runner winning a race against a top level scientist ... it's different skills.

I use chaos magic more, but that is because that is my gameplay style ... I love fire diviner, fire guard, wizard, lich, heretic ... nearly all the advanced classes so that is why I go for it.

It's more useful on start and when number of creatures is not big, other than that ... order is an easier choice.

But at all stages of the game it's important who and how uses the spell schools.

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moarbarmu
moarbarmu

Tavern Dweller
posted June 22, 2020 06:08 AM

What do you mean by Order is an easier choice. Do you mean by Order is easier to use, better or both. To me, Chaos can excel with small or large armies. In Equilibris, I think that Chaos is clearly better than Order because while magic resistance stops Order from doing all of its nastiest tricks, it only stops my direct damage spells. My buffs are very, very powerful, especially with larger armies. Plus Equilibris gives me Smoke and Hydra Health, two spells that really help me when I cannot simply shoot the enemy to death. I like both spells against Order. It might even make Hydras viable against Order. Magic Resistance is a huge problem for Order and only a moderate one for Chaos. Order is also at the mercy o random chance in the regular game, while Chaos is guaranteed a good direct damage spell at Level 5. Order has a 2/3 chance not to get Hypnotize in a one-town game, while I will get a good direct damage spell at Level 5 and I have a good chance to get at least one good mid-tier spell in Level 3 or Level 4. I am not sure why the consensus is that Order Magic in the regular game is better than Chaos Magic. I do not think that it is. In Equilibris, the balance is different but I would say that while Chaos Magic is a little better than Order Magic in the regular game, it is the clearly best school in Equilibris.

As for the worst school, I would think that Death is the worst school, both in regular and especially in Equilibris. It has too many Undead summoning spells, which are not as good as Nautre's summoning spells and too many debuffs. It has a small number of very good spells and you are not guaranteed to get more than a handful of good spells. Especially in Equilibris, buffs are better than debuffs. Direct damage is valuable, summoning is situational, buffs are great, and debuffs are unreliable in Equilibris. In the regular game, I still think that buffs are slitghlt better than debuffs, but it is closer and great debuffs are often very worth casting. Still, summoning and debuffs are the weakest two of the four main types of combat spells, in both versions, but especially in Equilibris. Direct damage is underrated by players of this game. To me, buffs, then direct damage, are the two strongest types of combat spells in this game.
So, let us review the five schools of magic-
Chaos- buffs, direct damage, and a few debuffs (it is the best in Equilibris and slightly the best in the regular game)
Order- debuffs, buffs and some summoning and direct damage (almost tied for the best in the regular game and probably third in Equilibris)
Life- overwhelmingly buffs (a strong third in the regular game and probably second best in Equilibris)
Nature- no direct damage at all, which is bad, a few debuffs, mostly buffs and summoning (it is fourth in Equilibris and the regular game, but it is closer to the bottom in the regular game)
Death- a few dot/indirect damage spells, tons of debuffs, very few true direct damage spells, a few buffs, and lots of summoning (last in both Equilibris and the regular game, but close to fourth in the regular game)
In sum, buffs (blessings) are the best to have, even better than direct damage and in Equilibris, this is the more the case; the more and better buffs you have the better your school is, except that Order is still better than Nature despite havign less buffs, even in Equilibris
To me, Chaos is the clear winner in Equilibris and is better for all but really good players in the regular game- reliably good direct damage and buffs are the best combination of spell school specialties that you can get, but you get a few good debuffs too; the school is not narrow at all.

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TheUnknown
TheUnknown


Known Hero
posted June 23, 2020 12:17 AM

moarbarmu said:
What do you mean by Order is an easier choice.


1. One hero can defeat two stacks of 20000 titans alone.
2. You can Steal All Enchantments or Dispel heroes with 100% magic resistance, you can even use illusions against them. With chaos you only have buffs.
3. You can teleport in and out of a castle, luckily equilibris added line of sight requirement.
4. Town Portal is overpowered unless you use equilibris.
5. Debuffs and Buffs from Order (like Blind, Cowardice, Slow, Displacement ...) make your life a lot easier when fighting huge neutral armies. Chaos has amazing buffs/debuffs as well, but they are more suited towards one final battle, where you can afford losses in the name of victory.
6. If you have many low level creatures, they can do quite a bit of damage if you "sacrifice" them with Pain Mirror.

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moarbarmu
moarbarmu

Tavern Dweller
posted June 23, 2020 02:03 AM

One hero cannot do that in practice only in theory. The big battles are the important ones. Also Steal All Enchantments and Dispel would not work on the hero him/herself only the rest of the army. These debuffs are no more effective on that hero as a direct damage. What do you mean that Chaos only has buffs when these debuffs would meet the same fate? You are using very specific situations too. Overall, in player vs player and even in PVE, the Chaos mage would be more powerful. You did not mention any of the rest of my rgument. I amazed that so many people think that Order Magic is better than Chaos magic especially in Equilibris.

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TheUnknown
TheUnknown


Known Hero
posted June 24, 2020 09:12 PM

moarbarmu said:
I amazed that so many people think that Order Magic is better than Chaos magic especially in Equilibris.


There is a reason they nerfed it ... and I didn't see much discussions to nerf Chaos magic in any equilibris forum.

I said that Order is easier against huge number of creatures and heroes with magic resistance, that is why my examples were specific.
Chaos is is also easier but against small number of creatures and heroes without or with little magic resistance.

They both have their uses, but I would never claim or believe that Chaos is always better than Order.
If I had to pick, I would pick Chaos, but that is because I love it's gameplay style, not because I think it's always the most powerful.

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Ghost
Ghost


Legendary Hero
Therefore I am
posted June 24, 2020 09:57 PM

Equilibris is handicapped pussy. You can't snow them without fire. I could agree that Chaos is very OP. Problem is Titan with Chaos Ward and Dragon Golem with mind immune. Ok I ask you, do you use a Nature? OP! Wasp Swarm and Quicksand. So Combat-Death-Chaos-Nature. We also call problem. Over 40lvl heroes. Think about S map, etc I know the answer! The same, even if HoMM4 system says Order is better than Chaos. Because of S map. Think about thousands of Leprechauns. Order casts slow, and then Magi casts poison.  You use Stealth. How? Equal strong?! When you take a town, only Stealth hero isn't enough. All depend on map. Think legion of Faerie Dragons, legion of Mantises, etc You cast a Cloud of Confusion when only Combat-Chaos. Ok remember what? The best team is Chaos and Order. You can talk what you want. Those are still good.
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