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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: The ideal HoMM Rampart level 7 line-up with alternate creatures
Thread: The ideal HoMM Rampart level 7 line-up with alternate creatures This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted June 13, 2020 02:37 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 14:57, 13 Jun 2020.

Reddit link: Poll

Oh my God, look at their answers on reddit! Never expected so many "trees" fans.
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dj
dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted June 13, 2020 03:28 PM
Edited by dj at 15:37, 13 Jun 2020.

The level 7 i would like to see in a Nature theme are:

1. Green Dragon from MM:H7 but with wings and casting Earth/Nature spells like Faerie Dragons.

EDIT: having two types of dragons as level 7 would kill the diversity of the faction so I thought that it is better to combine them and pick something entirely different as an alternative. The same would apply for Phoenix/Dragon combo as they are too similar in functionality (swift flyers, somewhat anti-magical etc.)


2. Mountain Giant
3. Treant/Dendroid/Ent - but if there would be Mountain Giants, i would place them on 5-6 as rock is harder than wood

As for Phoenix, I dont see them in neither Conflux, nor Preserve. I imagine them residing in hot places and/or scorched lands (volcanoes, deserts, rough lands) with little to no vegetation.

They could be a part of a dwarven faction that was built inside a volcano (HoMM 5 HoF Fortress), Inferno, Oasis, Bastion even Stronghold or HoMM 5 Academy.

I really don't see any Druid wanting to summon a Phoenix in their wooden land and scorch the entire village or grove. They would be a hazard for the surrounding forest. Unless they have the Harry Potter Phoenix ability to burn with their flaming bodies at will.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted June 13, 2020 03:51 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 15:55, 13 Jun 2020.

Of course they have that ability.

Well, in H4, Faerie Dragon and Phoenix are exact opposites: Phoenix is a strong flyer with some magic immunity, while the Faerie Dragon is a strong spell caster, so I don't see how they could be that similar except flying (and maybe the fact that F Dragons have Magic Mirror).

Also, such a green dragon would technically be a Faerie Dragon in disguise, technically speaking.

I don't think that, regarding my H7 mod, I will include giants or trees as level 7 tho, since they're too close to Ashan heresy, but this thread is mostly about an ideal HoMM game, so feel free to share any opinion anyway. If the tree or giant unit is really demanded, I'll have to include it then.
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Ghost
Ghost


Legendary Hero
Therefore I am
posted June 13, 2020 05:20 PM

I can't say whichever. I like Green/Gold Dragon and Faerie Dragon from WoG. I like also H4. I play both. I don't like H2 and H5. I never played H1, H6 and H7. So I can't vote!

H3

Green is power in Resurrection, but slow.
Gold is excellent by Armageddon, etc
Faerie is weak, but strong spellcaster and HP.
Phoenix is weak, but 4 Phoenixes per week.
Diamond is the best.

H4

Faerie is strong and weak.
Phoenix is the best, but hard play

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted June 13, 2020 06:08 PM
Edited by Galaad at 18:09, 13 Jun 2020.

Yeah I mean, it's a fantasy world, so I don't see any issue with Phoenix being able to be in the forest without burning it... Things are (Might and) Magic or they aren't...
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted June 13, 2020 06:13 PM

Ghost said:
I don't like H2


Heretic.
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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 13, 2020 08:53 PM

dj said:
The level 7 i would like to see in a Nature theme are:

1. Green Dragon from MM:H7 but with wings and casting Earth/Nature spells like Faerie Dragons.

EDIT: having two types of dragons as level 7 would kill the diversity of the faction so I thought that it is better to combine them and pick something entirely different as an alternative. The same would apply for Phoenix/Dragon combo as they are too similar in functionality (swift flyers, somewhat anti-magical etc.)


2. Mountain Giant
3. Treant/Dendroid/Ent - but if there would be Mountain Giants, i would place them on 5-6 as rock is harder than wood

As for Phoenix, I dont see them in neither Conflux, nor Preserve. I imagine them residing in hot places and/or scorched lands (volcanoes, deserts, rough lands) with little to no vegetation.

They could be a part of a dwarven faction that was built inside a volcano (HoMM 5 HoF Fortress), Inferno, Oasis, Bastion even Stronghold or HoMM 5 Academy.

I really don't see any Druid wanting to summon a Phoenix in their wooden land and scorch the entire village or grove. They would be a hazard for the surrounding forest. Unless they have the Harry Potter Phoenix ability to burn with their flaming bodies at will.



I like what you posted here, it really feels we're on the same wavelength.

I was thinking about a Mountain Giant as well and then have Treants be of a lower level. Basically follow the theme of a mountainous woodland like in Heroes 3.

Going the Pixies and Faerie Dragon route... I mean, it could work, but I'd honestly like to see those in a Grove / Fae faction with a bit more lean on the magic side.

Phoenix is a no for me for reasons already mentioned. I think it fits well in Academy as a conjured creature.
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dj
dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted June 14, 2020 12:27 PM

I understand that this is a magical world and anything is possible, but all the successful works out there in the world are successful because they make (some) sense, they have a logic.

Theoretically, a Phoenix would be able to fly around the forest without burning the trees due to its will power which makes it choose whom, where and when to burn with the flames of its body, but what about when it is weakened, sad, angry or, worse, compelled? It only takes one second for them to have their will power weakened and a strong fire could start immediately.

If a heretic, who has greater knowledge of controlling fire magic than a druid, breaks into the magical defenses of the elves he can pursue one Phoenix to start burning things around. Nature is very weak against Fire. In all games, Fire is super effective against Nature (as in real life).


And then there's Fire Magic knowledge.

Druids spend their entire lives within nature, ganing Earth Magic knowledge (i would rather separate Nature from Earth, but in HoMM 3 we have only Earth Magic). It wouldn't make sense (for me) that a Druid to be able to summon a fire creature or any other creature from other elemental categories.

They spend time meditating in the forest so it makes sense for them to know and to be known by the magical creatures of the forests (unicorns, pixies, tigers, bears, dendroids - which i find them the highest forms of elemental creatures on the Nature hierarchy, that s why i would place them as level 7, parallel to the angels, phoenixes; green dragons from MMH7 would be on the Earth ladder). They would not have the knowledge to use fire magic and to control such creatures of fire magic. Only someone who studies Fire Magic would be able to do that.

And Phoenixes would not even be able to live inside a forest anyway for a druid to spend time with. What if there's a bird of nature/earth that lives inside a forest? we have thunderbirds, firebirds, why not nature/earth birds?
So, not only would a Phoenix/Firebird burn the forest around in a split second of not being aware of its body flames, but if it has consciousness, the phoenix would not let himself harm the forests and its creatures and it would move away in fire related places and where it wouldnt accidentally harm the territory. And it would obviosuly pick places that fuel its flaming feathers.


Or...just like a forest fire is necessary every other season, maybe there's a Phoenix that controls a territory of forest and helps the forest regenerate with forest fires )

and what if Phoenixes are feral and fight over the territory they control? It would be hazardous for a forest. What about baby Phoenixes? They could burn a great part of the forest until they learn to control their flames.

So yeah, while it would be possible through magic means that a Phoenix live in forests, there are more reasons for it not to.

@Stevie, thank you. I appreciate that. I always like to include WoG factions. So, yeah, let's reserve Mountain Giants for Grove.


So if Trees and Phoenixes are unpopular in the votes and two dragon types would kill the vibe off (even though i see it has the most votes, which surpises me because i saw that the community is pretty much against many dragon types), do we need to come up with a new level 7 unit for Rampart?

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted June 14, 2020 12:44 PM
Edited by Galaad at 12:45, 14 Jun 2020.

dj said:
So yeah, while it would be possible through magic means that a Phoenix live in forests, there are more reasons for it not to.


You make very good points but you see, it is precisely because there is more reasons for it not to that I like it.
That is just down to a matter of preference, yes it is less logical, and yes I like it better this way. And no I am totally not biased by HoMM2.
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted June 14, 2020 01:09 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 13:10, 14 Jun 2020.

For a new HoMM game, we might need to come up with a new unit, if the matter of alternative level 7s comes, I totally agree with that (but regarding the H7 mod, I'd prefer to stick to the lore of Axeoth and Enroth mostly. As much as I would want to include a totally new troop, as a level 7 especially, that might backfire in the end).

Btw, the next similar poll should come out these days. Some suggestions would be welcome (on reddit it'll come later, so the guys don't complain )
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dj
dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted June 14, 2020 01:45 PM

That would not be hard to propose. Provided you are able to do that, If you want to stick to Axeoth lore, the Mantis would be a great addition and the community would probably like it.
Or any other earthly giant insect like a beetle with earth and plants on it.

The world of the insects in HoMM is under-represented. We only have serpent/dragon fly and scarabs in Bastion, which is not official (and maybe butterfly wings in pixies/sprites and scorpion tail in manticores/scorpicores, which are not insects but arachnids).


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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted June 14, 2020 01:50 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 13:51, 14 Jun 2020.

I'll have to see to that. I'll do a poll on Mantis later on, probably after I get back to modding H7, since now I'm occupied with H3. Also, I wonder what the trouble of animating the Mantis will be.... (even if I do pay for one with animations, they would probably be done for an RPG or for a decorative object)

The thing with the lore part is, that even it doesn't logically fit in a game since it has no background, it does somewhat fit in a game if that thing has a certain background (like Phoenix in H4).
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted June 14, 2020 02:38 PM
Edited by Galaad at 14:42, 14 Jun 2020.

Never been a fan of insects...

Tbh I absolutely adored the original idea from NWC that was planned for H5 and was always sad it never saw the day in a form or another...

     

     



Insects bring a completely different vibe... More fitting to a town like H3 Fortress IMO.
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Ghost
Ghost


Legendary Hero
Therefore I am
posted June 14, 2020 03:26 PM

But H5 by NWC/3DO is much more different than H4. Radical changes JVC said. I like H4. I can't say about radical H5, because I haven't experienced. Love or hate radical, JVC loves HoMM.
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted June 14, 2020 03:54 PM

Next question is gonna be about dwarves, if I get no feedback on that.
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Ghost
Ghost


Legendary Hero
Therefore I am
posted June 14, 2020 04:03 PM

Rampart/Preserve or Tower/Academy. H5 by NWC/3DO could be Tower/Academy. Remember what H4 told about Red Dwarf. H3 Rampart has powerful magic resistance: Dwarf and Unicorn also Dragon, and then resistance skill. But Ranger can't cast a protection from Fire. When extreme strong.  

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sirironfist
sirironfist


Known Hero
King of the ogres
posted June 14, 2020 07:43 PM
Edited by sirironfist at 19:44, 14 Jun 2020.

I like the idea of non-flying dragons roaming the woodlands. Something like the Heroes 6 water town worm thingy would be kinda cool. Or the Might and Magic 6 worms. I imagine flying dragons to have some difficulty navigating through the trees.

You know, when you're walking through elven territory beneath huge trees and you look up with no suspicion and there's a giant dragon entangled around a tree staring at you like a snake stares at its lunch? That'd be kinda cool.

I like ents/dendroids/trees as well, but I find it hard to turn them into an interesting unit. I like dendroids in H3, but it's very easy to make a tree unit look stupid.

Phoenixes would be a good neutral unit if you ask me. I don't think they ever really fit in anywhere properly. The combination of a fire unit and a unit that seems to be of "good" allignment, makes it hard to find a good compromise. You could explain it with a factions religion maybe. After all, phoenixes are a symbol for rebirth.

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Rimgrabber
Rimgrabber


Known Hero
It's a fixer-upper
posted June 14, 2020 08:08 PM
Edited by Rimgrabber at 20:18, 14 Jun 2020.

Phoenixes will always be a Conflux unit to me I agree with most of the criticism about having a Phoenix in a forest-themed town. I could also see them working really well in Academy too though. I do sort of like the idea that since all the elements, even fire, are part of nature the phoenix could be a representative of that but then the faction would need to have earth, air, and water representation at which point its just a hybrid of Rampart and Conflux. Which in all fairness I think would be badass but I don't think its what you're really going for. I don't really like dwarves being in Rampart either because they'll inevitably play second fiddle to the elves and that's no fun. I agree with leaving them in Academy. My vote goes to trees and faerie dragons because I like trees and faerie dragons are more interesting and less extinct than gold dragons.

For me the ideal line-up would probably be something like:

1. Pixie-->Sprite
2. Faun-->Satyr
3. Wood Elf-->Grand Elf
4. Druid-->High Druid
5. Unicorn-->Alicorn
6. Dendroid-->Treant
7. Faerie Dragon-->Sylvan Dragon/Kirin-->Serene Kirin
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^ Part 2 of my proposal for Heroes 8 (Part 3 coming soon)

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dj
dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted June 16, 2020 07:46 AM
Edited by dj at 10:16, 16 Jun 2020.

Quote:


The thing with the lore part is, that even it doesn't logically fit in a game since it has no background, it does somewhat fit in a game if that thing has a certain background (like Phoenix in H4).


Not necessarily, no.

The fact that there is no representation in game of a certain unit/faction, it doesnt mean that it doesnt exist or that it cant exist at some point.

We have these factions with their creatures because the story revolves around them. It certainly doesnt mean that there arent mantis or even waspworts on Enroth, or orcs in Bracada/Erathia as redeemed soldiers.

If well designed and well thought, anything can be implemented. You could pull off ancient races/factions that developed way before humans, elves, orcs, dwarves, halflings arrived on Enroth.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted June 16, 2020 10:54 AM

Well, yeah, that's true. But the fact that a creature which shouldn't fit already has a background makes it easier for that creature to fit or be implemented as well.
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