Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info mods forum | HOMM4: info CTG forum | HOMM5: info mods forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: HoMM3 FORGE: What is the best design choice for Juggernaut/Dreadnought, Forge Tier 7
Thread: HoMM3 FORGE: What is the best design choice for Juggernaut/Dreadnought, Forge Tier 7
FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted June 22, 2020 10:10 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 22:22, 22 Jun 2020.

Poll Question:
HoMM3 FORGE: What is the best design choice for Juggernaut/Dreadnought, Forge Tier 7

So basically, we all know the Forge thing. In MM7, the prequel of Forge, we have Kastore's and Resurrectra's team that crashed onto Enroth with the Lincoln spaceship (sorry for all the background, but is necessary for one of the choices). At the end of the game, in order to retry Forge's last piece, you have to face some robots in Lincoln, like this guy:





However, their stats are lower than a Titan's or a Dragon's, and since the tier 7 was supposed to be stronger than both.... But Kastore might have taken their model and update it.

Anyway, we also hear Greg Fulton saying the Juggernaut/Dreadnought would have been similar to the H4 Dragon Golem:





And the fan-made tier 7:



Or, it could be a biped one, like in Kuririn's Dragon Golem:



Or even, a sci-fi dragon, or a steampunk one (but Forge wasn't steampunk).

What do you say? Which was the way to go?

Responses:
MM7 Droids from Lincoln
H4 Dragon Golem-like
Biped Dragon Golem-like
Sci-fi wingless dragon
Steampunk wingless dragon
It shouldn't have been a dragon, even if Greg Fulton said it should, haha!
It should have been different (comment how)
 View Results!

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 22, 2020 10:43 PM

you didn't include axolotl's juggernaut or the new hota one? both are exceptional, and much better than what you included here(i don't count the newer gold dragon golem as a juggernaut, because it is it's own creature).

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 22, 2020 10:49 PM

I personally dislike heavy sci-fi elements in a Heroes game, thus not a fan of Forge. Dragon Golem as an Academy unit looks acceptable though.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted June 22, 2020 10:52 PM

fred79 said:
you didn't include axolotl's juggernaut or the new hota one? both are exceptional, and much better than what you included here(i don't count the newer gold dragon golem as a juggernaut, because it is it's own creature).


New HotA one is too steampunk to include. And the latter is the last option (as well as HotA one), but it isn't lore-friendly, and wouldn't have been part of the original Forge, since they said the tier 7 was gonna be 100% mechanical.
____________
"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
avatar
avatar


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted June 22, 2020 11:01 PM

What about MDT Forge Juggernaut version?
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted June 22, 2020 11:04 PM

I explained in my second sentence of my previous post.
____________
"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
Oddball13579
Oddball13579


Legendary Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
posted June 22, 2020 11:05 PM

I....... I hate all of them.
____________
"Just slide her down a bit farther. I could wear her like a hat." - Gnomes
"I would have needed to dislocate my jaw to fit it inside my hole." - Blizzardboy

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted June 22, 2020 11:06 PM

Lol, you came from Random Thoughts to troll a bit, based on my post there, right?
____________
"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
Ghost
Ghost


Legendary Hero
Therefore I am
posted June 22, 2020 11:10 PM
Edited by Ghost at 03:45, 28 Jun 2020.

Heroes isn't M&M. Maybe I read Finnish gaming magazine, JVC said Heroes isn't M&M, and he has no intention of committing violence in Heroes. I can't remember where about. I read much. I'm not Forgelike teeth as Fred. He adores Forge. Lol'er Erwin asked him creating map, because I rejected. Now's time to create Forge. They're Erwin and Fred! I recommend for a job. Fred has brain cell to create gorgeous map. By Heroes, I vote Dragon Golem, but I'm not logged in HC.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Oddball13579
Oddball13579


Legendary Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
posted June 22, 2020 11:10 PM

FirePaladin said:
Lol, you came from Random Thoughts to troll a bit, based on my post there, right?
Yes. You know me too well. Back to the Wastes I go!
____________
"Just slide her down a bit farther. I could wear her like a hat." - Gnomes
"I would have needed to dislocate my jaw to fit it inside my hole." - Blizzardboy

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
dj
dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted June 27, 2020 11:08 PM

Ok, so my answer to the topic is 'It should have been different (comment how)' because I am I haha.

But seriously, none of them fit (except Droids) because the rest are steampunk and they are some steps below the modern tech that Forge represents.

But Droids are ugly in this state, so if you pick droids you can make it look more aethetically pleasing. It's basically a dragon head and neck plus robot spider legs that shoots a laser and has a chainsaw. How hard can it be? haha

Also, droids could not have been level 7 because they are not full robots, since they contain some originally organic part: the skeletal part. At least that's how i see it. I dont know if the skeleton part if actually iron.

And you also dont need to take into consideration what the developers said. They failed the game because they stopped putting some thoughts into it.

Forge is a very complex and difficult faction/topic/whatever. And i totally understand the total rejection of the fans because it was a hazard. It was badly implemented into the game.

It belongs to the universe and it doesnt. What does that really mean?

Forge and technology belong to the universe - fact from story
Forge and technology dont belong to HoMM. - what fans say (even though there are obvious tech elements in the game)

But we should be careful of how we handle Forge and technology and how we implement it. Why?

Let's take a look at what it REALLY represents.


Forge - or the Heavenly Forge - is a blacksmith's smith, a smithy.

As far as i know, correct me if im wrong, it's a mechanical coffin that turns any creature into a mechanized version of themselves, it upgrades them.
The creature is usually humanoid because of the coffin-like shape and we can see the multitude of humanoid races in the original Forge lineup: human, goblin, ogre, minotaur, zombie. Races which assimilated technological knowledge and were able to create naga tanks and droids afterwards.

Ofc, this is pure speculation but that is how i can explain how the line-up came to be (lore wise).

There are two interesting things about the lineup:

1. the line up consists of races from the good side (humans, naga), the bad side (zombies and droid - undead dragon neck and skull) and the neutral side (goblins, ogres).

2. the line up consists of existing races that have been elevated to the mechanical version

What does that mean?

1. The MM6 ending has two endings: a good one, where the good side wins and a bad one where the bad side wins.

Originally, Forge was evil aligned, but the fact that there were humans (not necessarily a reason becasue humans are evil too) and nagas (good alignment) shows that anybody can be mechanized. Even the good, the neutral and the bad.

Lore wise, it shows that anybody who controls it, can use it for it's cause.
Food for thought: If angels/archangels are robots, does this mean that they have used the Heavenly Forge to become mechanized? Could they be the real lvl 7 of Forge?

So we know that the line up has good, evil and neutral creatures in its line-up.

Would it be a good idea to have full line-ups for each alignment if we think about alternative creatures too?
1 full good alignment
1 full evil alignment
1 full neutral alignment

- it would probably be the only faction that has 3 alternative line-ups. but it would be easier to manage if only 2-3 tiers per faction have the alternative creatures feature.

But that only strenghtens the idea that any creature can become mechanized, which is a better, more powerful (and more expensive) version of themselves.

2. So if anybody and anything can become mechanized, doesnt that mean that it is another dimension altogether?


When MIGHT and MAGIC meet

Technology is the rationalized magic and the enchanment of the might. You do magical things with might things. You can also say Heroes of Technology (Might and Magic).

I see Forge and technology as an advancement, that every player and race can achieve it.

The races on Enroth already started an advacement in technology, even if very slowly. Guns, arbalets, bows, catapults, ballista, skyship are obvious proofs that they already started advancing. The process would have been rushed with the finding of the Heavenly Forge, but they would have gotten at that point anyway.

Forge should not be a mere faction. It should have its own expansion after the first release and become a dimension of the game where every hero (be it magic or might) can achieve a level (40 let's say) and unlock its counterpart. Might unlocks magic and magic unlocks might.

Of course, it can be implemented in other ways and that is not the point, but the player should be able to mechanize his army at some point to achieve his good, evil or neutral intentions.

And, yes, this would take a lot of effort to make every aspects of the game become tech, but as i said it before, that is a work done for a whole expansion.




 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
LordInsane
LordInsane


Adventuring Hero
posted June 28, 2020 01:27 AM

The Heavenly Forge, as shown in MM7, is a replicator. It turns energy into devices, the example in the Evil ending being producing blasters (it apparently has a maximum of being set to producing 999 without new input). MM6 had already indicated by dialogue and descriptions you could see that the Heavenly Forge was used to create items, not as a tool to transform creatures, and MM7 indicated so as well even before the Evil ending through item descriptions.
And yes, the droids (who are not constructed by the Forge, in the context seen in MM7, they were brought there on the Lincoln, the ship that also carried Kastore) are almost certainly metallic and only looking skeletal.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted June 28, 2020 02:14 AM

I agree with both of you, tbh. The MM7 Droids were actually full metal, if you look closely, and as dj said, the Heavenly Forge can be used for any cause.

One thing that I must add is that the magic in this universe is sophisticated technology, somehow.
____________
"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
LordInsane
LordInsane


Adventuring Hero
posted June 28, 2020 02:33 AM

FirePaladin said:
I agree with both of you, tbh. The MM7 Droids were actually full metal, if you look closely, and as dj said, the Heavenly Forge can be used for any cause.

One thing that I must add is that the magic in this universe is sophisticated technology, somehow.

For any cause regardless of morality, yes, but that does not mean that it can be used to do things outside the scope of what it is designed to do. If nothing else, when we see a Heavenly Forge it is physically too small for a naga to get inside, and we know the Heavenly Forges must have their limits given the Colonial Government was unable to defeat the post-Silence rebellions despite controlling several Heavenly Forges.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
dj
dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted June 28, 2020 03:33 AM

On the naga part, i said that it might have been constructed by the humanoid races that could have fit in the coffin, but my theory failed since the Heavenly Forge is for artifacts only.

I must admit that im under-informed about M&M details since i havent played any.

But that is of little importance, the other things i said stand up (yet).

The Heavenly Forge was built by the Ancients, right? which are on the good side (presumably) or at least on the humans, elves, dwarves side.
However, the Heavenly Forge fell on the wrong hands, the evil hands.


 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted June 28, 2020 10:56 AM

Well, the rebellion happened in very many places, and that was the problem.

You know, the Heavenly Forge could be able to create pieces for dwellings and such, which could then "upgrade" creatures.
____________
"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
LordInsane
LordInsane


Adventuring Hero
posted June 28, 2020 10:04 PM

dj said:
The Heavenly Forge was built by the Ancients, right? which are on the good side (presumably) or at least on the humans, elves, dwarves side.
However, the Heavenly Forge fell on the wrong hands, the evil hands.


Heavenly Forges being built by the Ancients is correct, yes. The Ancients being on the side of humans, elves, dwarves... rather more complicated. What their experimental goals are have always been mysterious, and they've been out of contact for over a thousand years (the dating system on Enroth is based on when they fell silent), before any modern Enrothian factions developed, with their attention spent on fighting the Kreegan elsewhere (and they can not be relied on to not be willing to sacrifice Enroth in that fight).
As to the Heavenly Forge falling into the wrong hands... well, more or less. A Heavenly Forge fell into hands that were both amoral and knowledgeable enough to repair it (but needing to scavenge replacement parts, and not being able to get the last needed one).

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: « Prev Thread . . . Next Thread »
Post New Poll    Post New Topic    Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.0486 seconds