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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: The ideal HoMM: where do Wizards belong?
Thread: The ideal HoMM: where do Wizards belong? This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · «PREV
Rimgrabber
Rimgrabber


Known Hero
It's a fixer-upper
posted July 13, 2020 06:34 PM

Abolish deserts. The world has progressed beyond the need for deserts. Plus I don't like sand since its coarse, rough, irritating, and gets everywhere. Not like snow, it's everything smooth...


Joking aside I hate desert aesthetics in general(prevented me from watching Breaking Bad for years) and I think snow fits more with the elegant beauty and mystery that should surround wizards.
____________
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=46284&pagenumber=1
^ Part 2 of my proposal for Heroes 8 (Part 3 coming soon)

http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=44815
^ My novelization

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Dj
Dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted July 13, 2020 09:29 PM

it's about faction identity.

While you have humans (Castle), elves (Rampart), demons/kreegans (Inferno), undeads (Necropolis) etc., you have wizards (Tower).

How does that sound to you? race, race, race, race, class.


And not only that, but they re also humans and we already have a human faction (Castle), while Rampart hosts two human-like races: elves and dwarves.

It's dispropotionate and lacks imagination, diversity, identity...

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Rimgrabber
Rimgrabber


Known Hero
It's a fixer-upper
posted July 13, 2020 09:50 PM

Wizards and even Undead aren't really a race though.
____________
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=46284&pagenumber=1
^ Part 2 of my proposal for Heroes 8 (Part 3 coming soon)

http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=44815
^ My novelization

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Dj
Dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted July 13, 2020 10:18 PM
Edited by Dj at 22:21, 13 Jul 2020.

You're right, they are not, that's why I started a discussion on the Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes forum section, but at least they have an identity. They surely are separate from the living. Race doesnt even matter for them.

And you can say Undead Wizard. You can also say Undead Human Wizard.

EDIT: i dont even know which comes noun comes first.

Wizard Undead Human? But you say Human Wizard not Wizard Human. To which you add Undead, so It's Undead Wizard Human?

It should be from the least important to the most important:
Wizard Undead Human, but it doesnt sound right haha



It's complicated with undeads so let's leave them as a race for now.

About Wizards, that's what i've been saying. Wizards are not a race. A faction should not have an identity based on a class, but on a race. At least that's how i see things, especially since all other factions are based on races (humans, elves etc.). And basically, the Wizards (Tower) is also a human faction.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted July 13, 2020 11:23 PM

Rampart has Dwarves and humans as well.
____________
"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."

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Dj
Dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted July 13, 2020 11:25 PM

All factions have humans. At least as heroes.

Yes, Rampart has dwarves and humans, but do you asociate Rampart with elves and dwarves? No, you say 'the elves faction', not 'elves and dwarves faction'.


Like someone said above, elves overshadow dwarves and they should have their own faction.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted July 13, 2020 11:29 PM

Conflux has different races of elementals. There's a pretty deep hatred between each elemental race.
____________
"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."

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Dj
Dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted July 13, 2020 11:58 PM

Yes, they waged war against one another on CRON, that is true. But note that they are not native to CRON. It says that they stepped in CRON and fought one another over hegemony.

They come from the Elemental Planes. Who created them or how they came to be? What is their purpose? The developers went bankrupt before they delved into this story thread, so we can only take conclusions and interpret some stuff.

Conflux is a gathering of all known elementals that came on Enroth during the invasion of the Kreegans.

They might represent a small portion (or bigger) of elementals or not, but what we can conclude from this is that their purpose is to:

1) Fight the Kreegans
and/or
2) Protect Enroth

I would go for the second since they are present on Axeoth too (and the purpose of those elementals is to protect Axeoth).

The difference in their looks might imply the fact that each planet (Enroth, Axeoth) have their own guardian Elemental Planes, but that's pure speculation as well (but it sounds cool ).

Both of their purpose may imply the fact that they have been created by the Ancients since it is known that the Kreegans fight the Ancients, unless...

The Ancients created VARN, CRON and Axeoth and Enroth were created by another set of gods (another Pantheon) and then the elementals were not created by the Ancients, but by other gods in order to protect their planets (planes) - and humans, elves, dwarves, orcs are created by the Ancients to protect their planes (VARN and CRON) and both planes/planets got mixed up.

The elementals invaded the planes of the Ancients (VARN/CRON) and the humans, dwarves, elves, orcs invaded the planets created by the other gods (Enroth, Axeoth) - again, pure speculation.

So, you see, it is not that peculiar to see all elementals in one place. They have the same purpose, we know that for sure (we saw that in AB expansion), and that is to protect Enorth or to fight the Kreegans, plus the fact that they're all elementals.

Now that the leaders and some small organizations are fighting one another, that is something else, because they could fall under corruption or, even so, just as any other race, not all of them are ruthless and war-seekers.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted July 14, 2020 12:05 AM

Well, I waited for you to say that. But after all, I don't think there's any need for the race thing. Dungeon ain't respecting that, Fortress either, and Stronghold as well. HoMM was just going with whatever went good together.
____________
"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."

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Dj
Dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted July 14, 2020 12:17 AM

FirePaladin said:
Well, I waited for you to say that. But after all, I don't think there's any need for the race thing. Dungeon ain't respecting that, Fortress either, and Stronghold as well. HoMM was just going with whatever went good together.




As a matter of fact..

Fortress does respect that. And it has an identity.

Fortress is a tribal society that lives in the swamps. It is ruled by three races:

Gnolls, Lizardmen and (ugh) Humans

If i remember correctly, humans are bullied and belittled by the other two, showing the fact that they are sort of an intruder race. They came after the gnolls and the lizardmen created a society and step-by-step the humans secured their place within the tribes.

These three tribes of Witches and Beastmasters control the beasts of the swamp: serpent flies, basilisks, gorgons, wyverns and hydras.

And that's what i've been saying about Dungeon in the other forum:
Quote:
About Dungeon, I think it's the other way around. I see the human heroes as outcast to (because of various reasons) or even exploring the dungeons of Nighon and encountering native creatures of those dungeons (troglodytes, medusas, minotaurs, manticores and red/black dragons), which probably already had a sort of established society. At least with the humanoid ones. Medusas have queens(!), Minotaurs have kings (!), harpies and troglodyes are the low class ones. I see them kind of like pirate-y, but in dungeons, to which humans came.



And don't get me wrong, im all for the idea of having two main races and 5 beasts/golems/dragon/elementals. That's probably the best formula of a line-up, but in Rampart, we have centaur, dwarves and elves.

And while Fortress is a faction of swampfolk (mostly of lizardmen and gnolls), Dungeon of cavefolk (mostly minotaurs and troglodyes), Rampaprt of treefolk (elves and dwarves),...

... Castle is a faction of humans and Tower of humans as well (and Wizards).

wat iz dis?

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted July 14, 2020 12:28 AM

You know that at the top of the Dungeon hierarchy there are humans, right? They just prefer to use the cavefolk to fight.

And well, what's the problem with a wizard society? It's the counterpart of Dungeon's chaos affiliated slavery system; Tower has an order aligned slavery system, where the only difference is that the humans are somewhat more implicated in battle and they also use constructs. And ofc, they had to include magi as units, since they are a classic.
____________
"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."

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Dj
Dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted July 14, 2020 12:42 AM

yeah, that's right. Too many humans. They 're everywhere.

In Castle, it's normal to have humans.

All other towns but Tower were lucky enough that the developers didn't create a human unit within the line-up.

And dungeon is not associated with humans at all (even if it has 6-7 human heroes in the ruling class). nor Fortress, nor Stronghold, nor Rampart. But Castle and Tower yes.

IMO, all factions need a clean up and reorganization, not only Tower, but Tower needs it the most.

I also dont like the way they are named. Castle, Tower, Rampart etc.
Castle builds Castle building. Tower also )




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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted July 14, 2020 01:07 AM

I don't see why Dungeon should be different than Tower.
____________
"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."

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Dj
Dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted July 14, 2020 01:46 AM

Both are ruled by humans and their slaves and creations (sort of).

in Tower humans

1. enslaved Gremlins
2. built Gargoyles in Kreegan's image
3. built Golems in their image
4. have human Magis as their core population
5. worship and ask for the Genie's help
6. allied with the Nagas (i think they're from the Water Plane, i doubt that they live in the mountains)
7. built Titans in their image

8 Humans, 8 Genies as heroes

in Dungeon humans
1. enslaved Troglodytes
2. enslaved Harpies
3. created Beholders
4. enslaved/allied with Medusa
5. enslaved/allied with Minotaur
- i would pick 'allied with' because i doubt that Medusas and Minotaurs would keep their Queen and King titles as slaves
6. tamed Manticores
7. tamed Black Dragons

6 Humans, 5 Minotaurs, 5 Troglodytes as heroes


The difference is that Tower (Bracada) is vastly populated by humans, Dungeon (Nighon) is not.

Bracada is the former Empire of Bracaduun which split into Bracada and Erathia.

Nighon was formerly ruled by a Lich (undead) and then by Mutare (living). This discrepancy of types of rulers shows that the faction was enslaved by a very powerful leader, but it doesnt mean that the majority of the population of Nighon is human.

I knew that and i get it that Bracada and Erathia were an empire and are both human factions but Bracada AND Erathia could have easily been represented by Castle (just like the Vori elves were represented by Rampart in Sword of Frost) and the snow faction could have been left to Tower. Dwarf faction or something else faction.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted July 14, 2020 01:58 AM

Genies aren't worshiped, they are just summoned.

Still, I dunno what's the problem with having a wizard only faction. It's simply just part of this world's lore and charm at this point.
____________
"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."

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Dj
Dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted July 14, 2020 02:18 AM
Edited by Dj at 02:31, 14 Jul 2020.

Their building is called 'Altar of Wishes'. What are altars for?
yes, i know that the buildings of the elemetals are the same 'Altair of Air, Water, Fire, Earth, Thought', but that means that they work the same. And Genies are very powerful Air Elementals.

Genies and all elementals types are summoned from an inferior perspective, meaning that they worship and humbly ASK for their aid.

And this made me come to the realization that the entire game and lore is centered around humans. Besides Inferno and Rampart.

Erathia/Castle always had human rulers
Bracada/Tower always had human rulers
AvLee/Rampart always had elven rulers
Eofol/Inferno always had kreegan rulers
Deyja/Necropolis always had undead human rulers
Krewlod/Stronghold had 1 ogre ruler (Boragus) and human rulers
Nighon/Dungeon had an undead human ruler, human ruler (Mutare) and the last one still human ruler (Tarnum)
Tatalia/Fortress had a lizardman ruler and now human ruler (Tarnum's son)
Conflux is a group of Elementalists who build altars to summon Planeswalkers and their elementals.
[and this realization nullifies my previous theory and Conflux does not have a higher purpose and it only exists because some heroes summon elementals to ask for help agaist the kreegans and that's all]

Daggerwound/Cove has human rulers


The more i analyze, the more i realize that Heroes 3 is a story of how humans take over the planet and ruin everything.

And even more, with Heroes Chronicles, it becomes more about Tarnum and his son since they appear in H4 and they have a great impact of the history.

Yeah, lore wise, doesnt sound appealing There are no Lizardmen in the spotlight, no Medusas, no Goblins etc. Yes, there are heroes, but not notable like Catherine, Roland, Kendal, Christian, Dracon, Gelu, Mutare, Gem, Yog, Crag Hack, Adrienne, Kilgor, Tarnum, Lord Haart, Sandro. All humans. And i dont wanna talk about Heroes 4 main characters.

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Rimgrabber
Rimgrabber


Known Hero
It's a fixer-upper
posted July 14, 2020 05:47 AM
Edited by Rimgrabber at 05:50, 14 Jul 2020.

I'd actually like to see it the other way around, keep humans as heroes in every faction but also throw in elves, dwarves, goblins, etc throughout various other factions. Maximus is Castle, for example. There could be an elf Warlock (name him Raelag! lol), an ogre mage in Tower that went to learn more magic then what it could learn in a Stronghold, a minotaur barbarian that yearned for freedom so they escaped from Nighon to Krewlod etc.

Conflux does have a higher purpose though. Its referenced in several hero bios that they "felt the call of the Conflux" which seems to imply that its the humans/genies/elves/dwarves who were summoned by and are now serving the Conflux, not the other way around. Throughout the campaign, the various elemental characters also talk about how they have a duty to fight the Kreegans, and then the Conflux disbands after the death of Lucifer Kreegan.
____________
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=46284&pagenumber=1
^ Part 2 of my proposal for Heroes 8 (Part 3 coming soon)

http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=44815
^ My novelization

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Dj
Dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted July 14, 2020 09:20 PM
Edited by Dj at 21:20, 14 Jul 2020.

Rimgrabber said:
I'd actually like to see it the other way around, keep humans as heroes in every faction but also throw in elves, dwarves, goblins, etc throughout various other factions. Maximus is Castle, for example. There could be an elf Warlock (name him Raelag! lol), an ogre mage in Tower that went to learn more magic then what it could learn in a Stronghold, a minotaur barbarian that yearned for freedom so they escaped from Nighon to Krewlod etc.


I agree with that. Gnoll Cleric, Orc Elementalist, you name it.

But each race comes from a place (of origin). Let's say Tatalia is the place of origin of Gnolls, but Gnolls can go to Bracada to study wizardry, to Erathia to join priesthood etc.

And this could work in game mechanics as betraying alliances in maps.

Get rid of the meaningless player colors and replace them with factions: Teal is Tatalia. So you pick your Gnoll hero to represent Tatalia, but then you join Erathia (Blue) and betray Tatalia. (as an example)

Quote:

Conflux does have a higher purpose though. Its referenced in several hero bios that they "felt the call of the Conflux" which seems to imply that its the humans/genies/elves/dwarves who were summoned by and are now serving the Conflux, not the other way around. Throughout the campaign, the various elemental characters also talk about how they have a duty to fight the Kreegans, and then the Conflux disbands after the death of Lucifer Kreegan.


I knew something like this, but i played the campaigns +5 years ago and i barely remember details. And at this point, its no use to focus on the past, but on the future People in Altar of Wishes voted for a new universe.

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Skeggy
Skeggy


Promising
Famous Hero
posted July 15, 2020 09:34 PM

Wizards don't belong anywhere. That's why they are a stand-alone faction. It's not that they want that. Their not-belonging is a mere consequence of a thing that happens when you have a deep passion to be excellent in some field.
It's one thing when you have a wish and passion in a macro world, it's quite another when you can feel wish and passion on a nanoscale.
It's one thing when your ego can feel the need to react and defend values, and quite another when you can go into surfaces, planes, and pockets of a sub-ego world. Why do you say? to see the source code of passion and wish so you can create your own, non-ego version of justice and share it with the dragons.
Or to be a necro, or Elementalist, or summoner, or to prove that will can exist without roles that postulation of ego can create.

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