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| Thread: Spells - are they in right school and level? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Hourglass
Famous Hero
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posted August 09, 2020 07:59 PM |
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Spells - are they in right school and level?
Is it just, me or are there really spells that could be more fitting from balance POV/themematically if they could be accessed with another mage guild level or school of magic?
For example, I feel that Slayer spell should have been lvl 2 instead. As a lvl 4, it's mostly there to only fill the MG with an unnecessary spell. As a lvl 2 spell it could sometimes see play, but because it's a lvl 4 spell, you likely have better answer to tier 7 creatures when you finally build lvl 4 MG.
Sacrifice is also a neat spell, but as a lvl 5, it doesn't really make much sense - it should have been a tier 4 or mby even tier 3 spell. (the numbers should be tweaked accordingly)
Townportal should have also been tier 5.
Then, when it comes to the spells that are in wrong school of magic, Dimension Door is a prime example. From balance point of view, this would make most sense - Fire doesn't have any adventure spells, and tier 5 fire spells are Sacrifice and summon elemental, so nothing to brag about. Also, from the lore point of view, teleporting is often related to fire magic - there are the teleporting Devils and Inferno's Castle gate, but also something like Firebirds are summoned to Pyre from Elemental plane of fire.
Then there's something like Counterstrike, that's somewhat off - I think any other school could be more fitting. Btw, Counterstrike would also be more fitting as a lvl 3 or 2 spell instead.
So, what do you guys think? Are there spells that should be down/upgraded to another level? Should some spells be changed to another school of magic? Share your thoughts.
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted August 09, 2020 08:14 PM |
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http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=46445&pagenumber=2
Well, what can I do if among the only creatures in H3 only the Kreegans know how to use teleportation on a regular basis, since they are aliens who are among the only beings on Enroth who possess technology (Phoenixes had Red Towers in H2, btw)? Ancients could do that as well, and they weren't related to fire. However, there was no Ancients faction in H3 to show that.
There are also some early Inferno concepts which showcased something like tech being used. My guess is that they discarded it in order to prevent something similar to what happened with the Forge:
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"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."
The Reckoning.... it's drawing near....
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Hourglass
Famous Hero
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posted August 09, 2020 08:31 PM |
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FirePaladin said:
Well, what can I do if among the only creatures in H3 only the Kreegans know how to use teleportation on a regular basis, since they are aliens who are among the only beings on Enroth who possess technology (Phoenixes had Red Towers in H2, btw)? Ancients could do that as well, and they weren't related to fire. However, there was no Ancients faction in H3 to show that.
Well, let's put it this way: IMO there's more fire-related stuff in the game, when we're talking about teleportation. To be fair, DD is somewhat neutral - one could argue it belonging to earth or water school as well. It's just that usually, when the subject of teleportation or magic portals is been brought up in the game, it's often related to fire or fiery place. Actually, only air-related form of teleportation is Dimension door.
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted August 09, 2020 08:35 PM |
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Air magic controls "space", as I said, so it wouldn't really have what to do in other schools. Besides, I already explained why TP is specifically in Earth Magic in the other thread.
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"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."
The Reckoning.... it's drawing near....
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Hourglass
Famous Hero
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posted August 09, 2020 08:53 PM |
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Well, TP is also quite "neutral" spell, I could also think of argurments why it should belong to water. Also, I don't see connection between Air magic and space. If there's such a theme in air magic, it's only present in Dimension door - and if that's the case, why such a niche couldn't be part of any other school?
You see, Air in Homm3 is a very mixed bag of spells. Earth is mostly about defence and surviability, fire is chaos - deal dmg at all cost, and water is mostly about buffing (and bit of debuffing) creatures. Air doesn't really have any kind of real "theme" in it. Lightning bolt, Fortune and Counterstrike are all listed under same school of magic.
Edit: Possibly better way of describing water magic should be "controlling the battle throughout creatures."
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Rimgrabber
Promising
Famous Hero
Voice in Gelu's Head
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posted August 09, 2020 08:56 PM |
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I had always assumed the Devils travel to the plane of fire to teleport so presumably other elements could do the same. Energy elementals sort of teleport as well although I guess that would also be the plane of fire. When I suggested DD be a water spell I was thinking about how visually portals are often portrayed as glassy and ripply so it seems watery. Balance wise of course it would be better for DD to be fire anyway though. Water walking is pretty much just diet fly that's much more situational so I can't imagine anyone ever picking water because of it. Probably for the best though, since IMO water's combat spells rival earth's.
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted August 09, 2020 09:00 PM |
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Haste is related to "space" which is "air", as well as Fly and the other lightning spells are (do you really think it boosts the physical abilities of the creatures instead of simply having the air push them, as even suggested in the spell animation?).
Fire is mind (in the sense of craziness) and fire itself.
Earth is the element itself and anything related to it and soil (Slow and TP).
Water is the same, Cure, Dispel and Prayer being ported from Light Magic and added here because they fit it more in here than in any other schools.
There are also some spells just simply thrown in like Fortune and such, and partially Counterstrike, since who knows if NWC put it in Air due to the air basically lifting the troops' arms to counterstrike again (fire magic couldn't prevent fatigue as well).
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"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."
The Reckoning.... it's drawing near....
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Hourglass
Famous Hero
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posted August 09, 2020 09:11 PM |
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FirePaladin said:
Haste is related to "space" which is "air", as well as Fly and the other lightning spells are.
Well, ofc we agree on this regard, but how do you mix DD with that?
The portal of magic doesn't need to have anything to do with space or air - it's magic based and the teleportation (moving from A to B) is done instantly. Therefore, one using such portal isn't actually traveling throughout space, but simply appears in different location after the spell is been cast.
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted August 09, 2020 09:13 PM |
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Uh, appearing in a different location means travelling through/in space, you know, even by the simple fact that you change location from A to B instantly?
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"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."
The Reckoning.... it's drawing near....
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Hourglass
Famous Hero
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posted August 09, 2020 09:21 PM |
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FirePaladin said:
Uh, appearing in a different location means travelling through/in space, you know, even by the simple fact that you change location from A to B instantly?
I would mostly focus on the "appearing" part. It's magic based teleportation, after all, you don't need your body to move throught/with air/space or something like that. You don't travel, your just appear elsewhere.
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted August 09, 2020 09:27 PM |
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Appearing somewhere else is still technically travelling to that certain place, no matter if you are not moving over the distance from point A to B.
____________
"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."
The Reckoning.... it's drawing near....
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Hourglass
Famous Hero
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posted August 09, 2020 09:35 PM |
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FirePaladin said:
Appearing somewhere else is still technically travelling to that certain place, no matter if you are not moving over the distance from point A to B.
Well, the point is, that if we don't need air/space to "cover distance" from A to B(even throught we aren't technicially "moving" in the normal context of the word), then DD doesn't really have an excuse of being part of the school of air magic.
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted August 09, 2020 09:41 PM |
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We are technically moving in the space itself, from point A to B. You disappear from space in order to appear again in space in another location (not taking into account physics theories and all, just saying we disappear-appear), all happening inside the space.
____________
"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."
The Reckoning.... it's drawing near....
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Hourglass
Famous Hero
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posted August 09, 2020 09:52 PM |
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FirePaladin said:
We are technically moving in the space itself, from point A to B. You disappear from space in order to appear again in space in another location (not taking into account physics theories and all, just saying we disappear-appear), all happening inside the space.
It doesn't matter if it happens in space or not. Here, the space only really keeps track of our presence, it isn't required to be part of our "movement". This would be perhaps different if we would talk about "normal" teleportation, as I would imagine our cells being transported throughout/with space, but since we're using magic, we can simply skip to the good part. 
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted August 09, 2020 10:00 PM |
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Magic=technology (possibly something like quantum physics, knowing JVC's concepts) in the MM universe. Says it all.
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"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."
The Reckoning.... it's drawing near....
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Hourglass
Famous Hero
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posted August 09, 2020 10:09 PM |
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Ehm, no.
Technology can appear to be magical, and to some extend, they can share similarities. But really, magic is simply magic.
Magic and technology can co-exist, like they do in Homm universe, the angels have all the right to be aliens, but in the end technology and magic are two different things.
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phe
Famous Hero
Life and Freedom
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posted August 09, 2020 10:18 PM |
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spells are not bad in their magic schools. All of them should stay in their magic schols and Tomes...they differ so much between none/basic/expert level. so we need to separate mass spells from basic single stack spells. We need to introduce separate Temporary Resurrection from True Resurrecrion. We need to separate neareast town's Town Portal from to wherever town Town Portal. Then knowledge of certain school magic wouldn't be so crucial. It
would change effects a bit, mana cost and range of them...
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted August 09, 2020 10:21 PM |
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Hourglass said:
Ehm, no.
Technology can appear to be magical, and to some extend, they can share similarities. But really, magic is simply magic.
Magic and technology can co-exist, like they do in Homm universe, the angels have all the right to be aliens, but in the end technology and magic are two different things.
Magic was already confirmed to be technology in MM and HoMM (or some kind of physics).
I personally agree with you, phe.
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"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."
The Reckoning.... it's drawing near....
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted August 09, 2020 10:25 PM |
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Well Slayer really should have been a mass spell and also Magic Mirror. The ONLY purpose of Magic Mirror seems to be to protect Gold Dragons from Implosion and even then would you sacrifice a turn and 25/20 mana to protect them...
Fire Shield could have had an area effect, I think mass would be too powerful.
And yeah as you know I prefer DD in Fire and only once per day.
Otherwise I think the spells fit reasonably well with their magic schools, but Earth is extremely strong and so is Air if Fly, DD 4 times a day and +5 Mass Haste is allowed. Water has many good spells and Fire a few situational spells, although Expert Berserk is extremely powerful.
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted August 09, 2020 10:26 PM |
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Mass Berserk is very strong, yes, sometimes the reason I take Fire Magic. Dang, it can turn the tide of the battle, in PvP as well.
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"Goblins use pistols because a shotgun recoil would kick them off the ground flying."
The Reckoning.... it's drawing near....
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