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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: Heroes IV: Basic Ornithology (first and not-so-first IMPRESSIONS)
Thread: Heroes IV: Basic Ornithology (first and not-so-first IMPRESSIONS)
Wyvern
Wyvern


Promising
Famous Hero
posted May 04, 2002 11:50 AM bonus applied.

Heroes IV: Basic Ornithology (first and not-so-first IMPRESSIONS)

Maybe you have noticed that I haven't posted recently. I wanted to make something like a "review" of Heroes of Might and Magic IV. I intended to do so a long time ago, even before the game was released... And now I'll tell you everything that I have noticed about the game. I hope that I won't forget something. Maybe someone has already said everything I'm going to tell you but... you'll have to put up with me as well. So:
My first impression was that the game ran on my computer! Before that many people with great computers said that it didn't work on theirs... But my poor machine had no problems with the game. Not only that, it doesn't run slowly (of course, Heroes III was faster). Furthermore, it only crashed the first time I started to play! After that - no problems at all... Many people complain but I think the system requirements don't show anything - maybe the problem is somewhere else...
Of course, we knew many things about the game before we had seen it. But I didn't know much more things which I had to learn by playing (and surely there are even more that I still don't know)... I'll say them in a chaotic order.
Many people didn't like the graphics. I do like them and I think they are better than in previous Heroes series. However, I don't care much about that - I think the best graphics I've seen are in Might and Magic 7 and 8 while most people say they are ugly...
Heroes participate in the battles. I suppose no one knew that... The idea of having more than one hero in an army or an army without heroes is taken from Age of Wonders. I must say this is very good for the gameplay - it gives you so many new strategies...
The hero is powerful even in the beginning of the game... against level 1 creatures. Yes, a hero with a small army of the two types of level 1 creatures from his town can very easily defeat such wandering monsters... but for level 2 it's not so easy. And against level 3 the hero may even die... in the beginning.
I have to say that I have played only at the easiest difficulty - I like to do so but thus maybe I haven't experienced some features of the game. However, I know what it is to be without resources...
And since I mentioned wandering monsters, let me add that the idea of neutral creatures crossing the map is again taken from Age of Wonders. But I preferred to set them stay on their positions... I'm used to that. However, once I tried a game with moving neutral creatures only to see that they don't go to your town if you leave it... their radius is simply wider. Oh, the idea of having a "dangerous" zone around the wandering monsters is very good. If you stop 1-2 tiles away from them, they attack you. But if you don't stop and continue to walk in one direction, they don't attack you. Thus you can pass by them if you don't want to fight.
On the adventure map there are so many new places... For example, the Dream Teacher. The more Dream Teachers you visit, the more experience you get. And there are many others. The Windmills, Watering Wheels, etc. are now flaggable. What is more important is the fact that there are places which every week produce gold or one of the resources... Yes, in Heroes III it was so unfair to have such a building only for gems. Now there is one for every resource. However, you shouldn't rely on these places to gain many resources - they give them weekly and may give you gold instead... The good old mines are more useful.
About the mines... I know that there are veins and you have to pay to make them mines but I didn't find them. I only found one while looking at a map in the editor (I'll say about the editor later).
The fact that there are bridges now is very good. However, I don't find the walls so useful - you can use mountains instead but I admit that with walls it looks better - there is variety.
There are also shrines for every spell level - from 1 to 5. This is much better than the first 3 levels only in previous series.
I see that there is a great division between the alignments. There are now places that give morale to one alignment only! So you should plan the things more carefully.
There is something a bit confusing - the two types of water. The first one is as before but the second one is passable! And since I'm used to not being able to cross water, I often think there is no way to reach that object on the map while I can go through the water...
Oh, and since I mentioned two types of something... The fog of war! I'm not unhappy about the second type fog of war but why should it be so dark? Its purpose is to show you the objects on the map and to hide the enemy heroes/wandering monsters. OK, but how can I see the objects since the fog is so dark? It should be much more brighter. Now I move the mouse over the fog in order to get a message which to inform me is there a building or not. I can't accept that!
I think I finished with the adventure map... Maybe I'll remember something else but I doubt it.
Now about the heroes. They don't have specialties... but I think in this game they wouldn't fit as much as they did in Heroes III. Here you can make your heroes so different by their advanced class that there is no need of specialty... Wait! But there ARE specialties! Every advanced class has a specialty. 49 specialties - is this little for you? And something else. If every hero from a town had a different specialty, some specialties would be better than others. Would you play with a hero who has a bad specialty? And now you can play with every hero from a town because they are equal! This is more fair, I think.
With these advanced classes Heroes became much RPG-like. This is great. You can decide what should your hero learn... but he will never learn everything! With 5 levels of mastery for all skills you should choose one or two directions in which he should develop.
By the way, it was a mystery to me how exactly that thing with the advanced classes happened. Then I noticed that when you gain a second primary skill, you don't become an advanced hero. You should learn a secondary skill from the group of this primary skill or just improve the primary skill and then you will become an advanced class. But I wondered how can these classes change? Well, if you develop a third primary skill MORE than the second one, your class changes. And this can be very useful. For example, in one moment you may need the specialty of one advanced hero class and after that - another specialty. No problem! Just develop another primary skill.
About the skills themselves - I think all of them are useful. Some are universal, others can be needed in several cases. The problem is - which is better? Tactics or Combat? So far I think it's Tactics - it increases the stats of all creatures in your army while Combat helps only the hero/heroes. And in a normal army there are more creatures than heroes... But Combat can be also useful - why should your hero be weaker if he can improve his stats? However, the combination Tactics + Combat is too "might". Maybe it's better to combine a might skill with a magic one. And even if you learn the four might skills, there is one place left for a magic primary skill...
I read about the specialties of the different hero classes. But I noticed that some of them are similar and even one of the two similar is better tha  the other. For example - a class gives you bonus when casting the X spell while another class gives you the same bonus but when casting both the X and Y spells! Is this fair? Maybe they consider the combination of the first two skills stronger and therefore balance it with a weaker specialty?
I don't think a hero with Nobility has to be passive. Why? If he doesn't do anything, his Nobility won't improve. Thus he misses the best features of the skill... Maybe he should first develop two other skills and then start with Nobility. By the way, the governor of the city is anice feature. You can change governors but the point is only to give a town bigger growth if one of the heroes is with better Nobility. Anyway, this can also be a strategy.
The Scouting gives you something very pleasant - a prediction of how will the battle end. If only it was more accurate...
But I don't know much about the Stealth ability yet. I'm not fond of a single hero going to the enemy town, hoping that the enemy is stupid enough to leave it without defenders... but for capturing mines this could be a possibility... By the way, it's very funny when you go to a mine "without monsters to defend it". And then you are attacked by those Bandits...
And about the stats - one great new feature is the two different stats - speed and movement. This makes the battles much more strategical - you should care about two things and not one... Another innovation - there are Melee and Ranged Attack/Defense. If the two are different for one creature, you may attack it the way it's more vulnerable... A very good idea indeeed.
Creatures can wear artifacts but can't use them... it would be interesting to have a Sprite with a Plate Mail, for example... but this would cause some chaos, perhaps. I don't know much about the artifacts themselves - I haven't come across many of them. They affect only the hero in most cases but they don't decrease the stats so often. Yes, a Plate Mail decreses the speed and movement and increases the cost of the spells but there aren't so many artifacts that do similar things. I even found an artifact that increased some stats with much points but didn't decrese anything... this must have been a major artifact or a relic...
And even though creatures can cross the map and wear artifacts, they can't capture mines... this is made to restrict their freedom and to make them not so useful - otherwise there would be no need of heroes at all! I haven't tried to capture a town with creatures but I'm sure this can't be done!
Oh, some things to add - I didn't hear the music because I think I switched it off and furthermore my sound card is not working properly... but I suppose the music wouldn't disappoint me.
And I said I have finished with the adventure map - but there are some more things to be said... the objects can be situated with an entrance in two of the four directions and not in one as in previous series. This enriches the gameplay without a doubt.
The map is also much more generous than before... there aren't scholars but there are many other things - so many buildings for learning: magic/non-magic skills; primary/secondary skills; insreasing the stats... For increasing the stats there are also precious stones. They are a very nice innovation as well as the altars which give you one skill for free...
But that's not all - the elevation effect that I wanted so much is here! I remember writing to 3DO about that - I said many other things as well and Maranthea said that they always hear the fans or something like that but nothing special... Did they take the idea from me? You should agree that when you go up or down the movement shouldn't be the same (however, I haven't quite worked out how does that elevation effect work).
At last I can start with the towns and creatures, I think.
First - why is this thread called Basic Ornithology? well, I was inspired by ThE_HyDrA's "Basic Methodology" thread although I didn't read it (I didn't want to read anything so that no one can blame me that I have copied from somewhere else!). But I din't know what Ornithology meant before I looked in a dictionary. It means "scientific study of birds". Well, the birds in Heroes IV are the same number as in Heroes III - there are Thunderbird, Griffin and Phoenix. Now what can I say about the different towns?
Preserve - I liked it the most before I saw the game. It has some nice creatures but others are not there. The Gold Dragon is replaces by the Fairy Dragon (by the way, the number of dragons in the game is reduced, which is good). But is it better than the Phoenix? I don't know, I know that the Phoenix is very fast, strong and can resurrect itself. I don't know what the spells of the Fairy Dragon are but I suppose they are powerful... They are both flyers so... a tough choice! There are Wolf, White Tiger... now the town is more natural than before. The Wolf, however, is very weak. At least it has two attacks (I'm very gald that every single creature has a specialty). The Sprite is also not very strong but is fast and you can't retaliate... White Tiger or Elf? I'd say Elf. It's the only shooter and is a good one. The White Tiger may be strong and have First Strike but it can't replace a good shooter. And about the Griffin and Unicorn - I like the Unicorn and choose it but I have fought against Griffins... they are very strong!
The Nature Magic is not very good - mostly Summon Spells (although I don't know much about the magic in the game). But the Summoning skill can give you many troops for a short time...
Another good thing about the Preserve - you can buy 8 additional creatures! And each one can be useful. However, I choose the Waspwort - a powerful, though slow shooter. I don't think buying a Mantis is so good - when you have to buy two level 4's this is much resource-consuming...
Academy - wow, it's very difficult to build level 4 structure! They both require two buildings, each of them quite expensive. And who is better - Titan or Dragon Golem? The Titan is a shooter but when you attack the Dragon Golem, it may kill you without receiving damage at all! A tough choice again. The Dwarves are somewhat weak, I think. But the Halflings can be useful. Mages or Gold Golems? Mages. I think the more shooters/spellcasters you have, the easier you win the battle (which is not fair and they should balance it a bit). But Gold Golems are powerful and may fit in some strategies. What about the Genie and Naga? Well, the Genie is powerful but imagine an army with 2 shooters and 2 spellcasters - isn't this a little absurd? And what if the enemy succeeds to reach you? Furthermore, the Naga requires Treasury. But even if you choose the Genie, it's very good to build the Treasury. Thus with the Genie you have to build one more building...
The Order Magic... I don't know much about it. I haven't used it. But the Charm is much more useful than the Diplomacy (gives you creatures for free, why shoould you waste money?).
Asylum - the Black Dragons are the strongest creatures in the game. But they are in small quantities, want many resources... I prefer the Hydra! Yes, I worshipped Fortress but that's not the only reason. The Hydras can't be killed easily, attack everyone near them and there is no retaliation... and you can cast benefit spells on them. The Bandits are a bit weak and their specialty can cause laughter, not fear, as I said above. The Orcs are very poor shooters... But the Medusa is a nightmare! It is something like the Mighty Gorgon and stones you even when it shoots! However, the Minotaur blocks the attack of the enemy... aren't these specialties too powerful for level 2's? And as we talk about nightmares - the Nightmare is not so strong, I think. The Terror is not very pleasant but... the Efreet is good as before (or better?). However, you can choose whatever you want - if it's good for your strategy...
And, as in Heroes III, Asylum gives most to the hero stats. Experience, Attack, Spell Points...
The Chaos Magic (as far as I have seen) is powerful. It stresses on direct damage which is good in some cases.
Necropolis - well, in Heroes III I didn't like it at all. Now it looks more agreeable... I don't know whether the Bone Dragon is strong, the Devil is trong and can go anywhere. I'm sorry about the poor Venom Spawn - everyone chooses Vampire when this is the only shooter and (I think) is the level 3 creature with most hit points... but although I' sorry, I also choose the Vampire! And the Cerberus - I may have no shooters but two units without retaliation is also something strong! The Ghost... I don't know, it doesn't look very promising. The Imp is very fast but its main purpose is to drain Spell Points... and the Skeleton is an average unit.
And the path Cerberus-Vampire is easier than the other one...
Death Magic - didn't impress me much, Necromancy gives you Skeletons/Ghosts/Vampires... but if you have Cerberi and Venom Spawns the skill is not so good...
Stronghold - everything is spoiled by those stupid Berserkers! They do whatever they want and you only watch them spoil your strategy... Maybe I shouldn't buy them at all? But I recruit both the level 1 creatures (and I have only one hero in an army)... And the Centaur is somewhat weak - as a shooter, it has enough hit points... The Nomad may have First Strike and be a stable unit but I prefer the Harpy because of its specialty. And I think it's easier to get. What is hard to get is the Cyclope. And so I choose the easier path - the Ogre Mage, which is strong enough and in double quantity. However, I know that the Cyclope has an Area Damage - but this can be dangerous for you as well... Behemoth or Thunderbird? I don't know, I haven't gone that far... But I suppose Thunderbird. If I choose the Behemoth, I'll have to rely only on strength... whil some Lightnings can be devastating.
This town requires much ore. There are two or three buildings that inprove your stats... and the substitute for the Mage Guild - the Breeding Pens (was that the name?). But they cost a lot and you can buy them only after the level 3 dwelling... but isn't it better to build the level 4 instead?
However, it's good that the Barbarian heroes have one more skill in the beginning. I don't know if that balances the game but makes it more varied.
Haven - well, this has to be my favourite town (after Preserve). And, dare I say, the strongest! Both the Squire and the Crossbowman are useful (the latter - more). Who will choose Pikeman, Crusader and Champion? This is the Walker path... but it again relies on strength. If you choose one of the three, good, but all of them... And the enemy dies so easily after three shooters have attacked him... The Angel is also good - resurrects, flies, isn't weak in general.
And the building path is easy. The Seminary can be useful.
What about Life Magic? I don't know much but Resurrection is great (although there isn't a big difference between the Master and Grandmaster degree). The spell that impressed me was Song of Peace...
What else? I know, the buildings are at the same places in all the towns. In Heroes III it was more confusing but better-looking... However, this is not a problem. I don't know whether it's good that the terrain in the towns change. But it's true that the buildings could have been more. And some of them are similar in the different towns...
I don't use the potions. They are useless (according to me), there are few that cause direct damage but the only one I like so far is one that resurrects your hero if he dies in battle.
A good feature - to decide what type of attack you want. You may want to do a melee attack with a shooter after all! And even the Harpy can have a normal attack. You may say this is useless but it isn't. Imagine the following situation: a strong enemy creature is very near the Harpy. You want to attack a weak creature that is farther. If you do the Strike-and-Return, the strong creature will kill the
Harpy after that. But if you use normal attack, you will kill the weak creature, then stay ther and the strong creature won't be able to reach you. And even the normal attack of the Harpy has no retaliation!
It's not so comfortable to drag the creatures from one army and drop them to another... it can be annoying sometimes.
A great feature - you can save while in battle! Thus you can correct a mistake by loading IN the battle and not attacking again... If you don't like that, don't use it! But it's a very useful innovation.
And did you notice that you can change the names of the heroes you recruit from the Tavern? The heroes from your alignment cost 1500 while the heroes from neighbouring alignments - 2000.
The Marketplace is not a building anymore. It is something like an "option". The same can be said for the Thieves Guild, which is much useless now...
About the multiplayer - I don't care, there is Hot Seat in the original version and I don't need more...
What else can I say? There are surely many other things but I will never tell them all even if I want...
I only want to ask something - who started the "Wyverns - must be in HoMM4!" thread? And whose name is Wyvern? Of course, I'm talking about myself. The reason why I was prepared not to like Heroes IV was because the Wyvern is gone. Bring it back!!!!!! BUT (and this is a very strong but) that didn't prevent me from liking the game. And I must tell you Heroes IV is many times better than Heroes III! No matter what people say, this game is great!

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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted May 04, 2002 01:35 PM

Well structured. You managed to cover just about everything.
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted May 04, 2002 02:36 PM

"However, I know what it is to be without resources..."

The only resource I'm lacking is gold. The others you end up with in abundance, often seeling resources several times a week. Do ntice that Marketplace rates are now decent already to begin with. So you don't lose all that much by trading one resource for another. Often you just need one precious resource in any quantity so trading 3:1 from the start of the game is not bad. (With one castle in H3 it was something like 20:1 or 10:1)

And the resource requirement are almost non-existant for the buildings. You need a fair amount of wood and ore but those are more plentiful than the others anyway.

"The more Dream Teachers you visit, the more experience you get."

Yes, but unfortunately the Xp table more or less spoils their usefulness. Just as visiting a Learning stone won't be all that helpful late game, so it is also with the Dream teacher.

"About the mines... I know that there are veins and you have to pay to make them mines but I didn't find them. I only found one while looking at a map in the editor (I'll say about the editor later)."

There are a fiar amount of them. Developing them costs money and sometimes resources. Developing a Gold mine costs 15000 + wood and ore, other forms of mines costs 5000 Gold (and sometimes resources, I think it varies a bit on which mine you develope).

There are also "abandonded" mines guarded by neutral monsters which you have to defeat. (Back from H2.)

"There are now places that give morale to one alignment only!"

The Temples give +2 Morale to own alignement and +1 to allied alignments. (Undead, elementals are not affected since their morale always is 0 anyway.)

I agree on the FoW. it's simply too dark. They should make it brighter so you see the adventure objects more clearly.

"Wait! But there ARE specialties! Every advanced class has a specialty. 49 specialties - is this little for you? And something else. If every hero from a town had a different specialty, some specialties would be better than others."

There are only 37 specialities. The basic class has no speciality. You could, however, say that the Alignment of a hero is a speciality since the Alignment affects whcih troops you are suitable to lead. (Morale penalties and so on. The basic class and gender decides how the hero is animated on the adventure map and combat screen.)

"Would you play with a hero who has a bad specialty? And now you can play with every hero from a town because they are equal! This is more fair, I think."

Specialities is an issue for wishes so fits better in the Altar. I gave some ideas on Hero specialities on a thread there. You get to pick "Special Training" for a hero when you recruit the Hero, and this causes the hero to become more expensive to hire. However, comment on the Altar thread on this instead.

"Well, if you develop a third primary skill MORE than the second one, your class changes. And this can be very useful. For example, in one moment you may need the specialty of one advanced hero class and after that - another specialty. No problem! Just develop another primary skill."

It's actually very difficult. The reason is that you won't be offered improvements in the thrid class with any frequency. Almost every promotion offer will be in your main two classes. If you want to switch early on, or if you ant to switch to a class which includes Combat, then you'll have an easier time changing.

"I read about the specialties of the different hero classes. But I noticed that some of them are similar and even one of the two similar is better tha  the other. For example - a class gives you bonus when casting the X spell while another class gives you the same bonus but when casting both the X and Y spells! Is this fair?"

This is intentional. This is how the specialities are decided:
Advanced class with combat as one skill usually have a weaker speciality because these classes are very easy to get.
Advanced classes which include two opposing magic schools (and Archmage) have the best specialities since these are hardest to get.
The remaining bonuses fall in betweeen these extremes.

So the easier the Advanced class is to get, the weaker speciality it has.

"Maybe he should first develop two other skills and then start with Nobility."

Don't think so. Just place the hero with a more durable hero or a big army. They'll advance well. You want them to reach at least Advanced Nobility early on. And remember that if they get Diplomacy also, they can be a really good asset.

The creatures you get by Diplomacy is not free but you do get a substantial discount on them.

"The Scouting gives you something very pleasant - a prediction of how will the battle end. If only it was more accurate..."

It's not bad. I've found it too be overall accurate.

"But I don't know much about the Stealth ability yet. I'm not fond of a single hero going to the enemy town, hoping that the enemy is stupid enough to leave it without defenders..."

Often you mix in some Might skill or a powerful Magic college for this hero. They can take towns. The opponent can't baby-sit their towns. Their troops will have to be outside exploring.

"I haven't tried to capture a town with creatures but I'm sure this can't be done!"

You're right. You need a hero to take a town.

"The White Tiger may be strong and have First Strike but it can't replace a good shooter."

The Elves are overall weak shooters. Preserve's ranged power comes in the form of spells from the Water Elemental and Faerie Dragon. I'm happily taking Tigers here since I get one more reasonably fast unit. Preserve is the town with the best mobility.

"Mages. I think the more shooters/spellcasters you have, the easier you win the battle (which is not fair and they should balance it a bit). But Gold Golems are powerful and may fit in some strategies. What about the Genie and Naga? Well, the Genie is powerful but imagine an army with 2 shooters and 2 spellcasters - isn't this a little absurd?"

They are quite weak on the other hand. Sure they can get one free round of spellcasting, but if the enemy closes in they are in trouble. The opponent does need a way to react to the Genies spell (in particular illusions) or they'll be in trouble. Cancellation or Dispel should be in the opponent's spell-book. it's apity no creature has this spell, though I believe the Evil Eyes attack cancels beneficial spells cast on a target.

"But the Charm is much more useful than the Diplomacy (gives you creatures for free, why shoould you waste money?)."

Diplomacy will net you about double the amount of cretures. (And you do get a dscount on the creature.)

Asylum -
Myself I prefer Black Dragons. So many bad spells around so Magic Immunity is good. The Blackies can handle many situations where you would not consider bringing in anything except a 100% MR Hero.

I also take the Blackies for their mobility. A hero with only Blackies (and Efreets) travels far.

I usually take Medusa on the level 2, and can take either of the level 3. I will usually build a caravan in any case so Nightmare may be take for the reason that i need the pre-requisite anyway.

Necropolis -
The Venom spawn (and other on the non-undead path) makes sense if your hero are from order and chaos, or you want to mix in troops from these alignemtns. If you select the undead you get a -2 to morale and this is not good for you.

I'd probably take devils over Bone Dragons most of the time anyway. Teleportation and Ice Demon summoning are very valuable assets.

Venom Spawn are also easy to build, as easy as the Vampires.

"Death Magic - didn't impress me much, Necromancy gives you Skeletons/Ghosts/Vampires... but if you have Cerberi and Venom Spawns the skill is not so good..."

Necromancy is a bit broken. 2-4 Vampire per battle outproduces a town dwelling very quickly.

And did you notice that you can change the names of the heroes you recruit from the Tavern? The heroes from your alignment cost 1500 while the heroes from neighbouring alignments - 2000.

Except in Stronghold where all Might Heroes except Barbarians cost 2500.

____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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Dajek
Dajek


Known Hero
Psychedelic Knight
posted May 04, 2002 07:25 PM

I read it. I didn`t read all of it, but I read it. Maybe a bit too long, but You really thought about everything... Except for the bugs, but, well, it`s another threadanyway...
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Henl86
Henl86


Known Hero
oLd SkOoL RA2 OwNaH
posted May 05, 2002 06:33 PM

I read it, good post.
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Wyvern
Wyvern


Promising
Famous Hero
posted May 06, 2002 02:12 PM

Thank you for your comments, Djive. So:
You are right about the gold. I remember a thread in which it was called "a precious resource" and it's not far from the truth... The Marketplace rates are agreeable for every resource... except gold! Even if you all your other resources to gold, you won't gain enough!
Oh, now I remember that for your City Hall crystals and gems are required. Thus they become more useful than the mercury and the sulphur but are still counted equal to them! In Heroes IV they are somewhat like ore and wood, although still more similar to sulphur and mercury...
I see that yhe mine-building is very expensive... I think if you don't need the mine badly, you shouldn't build it.
About the "abandoned" mines - yes, I even came across one.
I didn't know that the Temples give Morale to allied alignments as well but still the idea is division of the alignments.
Oops! You are right - there are 37 specialties... I don't know why I came up with the other number!
I don't see why should I comment the specialties in the Altar since I don't want them to return! As I said, I prefer it like it is now - without specialties.
By the way, I have also noticed that Combat is offered very often... But I don't know why it is so - it's not a bad skill...
So you think Diplomacy is better than Charm? Well, I don't know, but YOU said that you lack gold... and would you waste it for creatures that you don't need?
And since I started this, I'll ask - if you refuse to take the creatures, do you fight with the ones that would go with you as well? Or you will fight with less creatures even if you don't accept to take them?
About Necromancy - if it really outproduces a town dwelling, then maybe it's better to choose Venom Spawns. Thus you will have them from the town and Vampires from Necromancy - both level 3 creatures!
So in Stronghold the Might heroes cost 2500? Well, something's wrong with Stronghold - to balance it they make things both easier and more difficult for it???

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Henl86
Henl86


Known Hero
oLd SkOoL RA2 OwNaH
posted May 06, 2002 02:18 PM

Combat is offered so often becaus without it heroes are dead in one blow from an enemy.
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted May 06, 2002 03:06 PM

"Oh, now I remember that for your City Hall crystals and gems are required. Thus they become more useful than the mercury and the sulphur but are still counted equal to them! In Heroes IV they are somewhat like ore and wood, although still more similar to sulphur and mercury..."

You usually save the resource for which you need to pay for your level 4s, no matter which this resource is. Gems is also saved because Tree of Knowledge may require them. The City Hall is often built overall early though, so in that case you've already built the building before you consider if you should sell resources.

"I see that yhe mine-building is very expensive... I think if you don't need the mine badly, you shouldn't build it."

For Gold Mines build it if you can afford it and have a feeling that you will be able to defend it. It may take many turns to get all the money back, but games are longer and return of investments are also longer.

"By the way, I have also noticed that Combat is offered very often... But I don't know why it is so - it's not a bad skill..."

All heroes need it or they'll die too easy. You don't need it to GM but I would advice Expert or Master for your better heroes.

"So you think Diplomacy is better than Charm? Well, I don't know, but YOU said that you lack gold... and would you waste it for creatures that you don't need?"

You can reject the creatures. The ones you take you get for half the price. Better to get double the creatures you really want for half the price than get half the creatures you want for free and accept a lot of creatures you didn't want to begin with.

"And since I started this, I'll ask - if you refuse to take the creatures, do you fight with the ones that would go with you as well? Or you will fight with less creatures even if you don't accept to take them?"

If you refuse, you fight the creatures you refused also.

"About Necromancy - if it really outproduces a town dwelling, then maybe it's better to choose Venom Spawns. Thus you will have them from the town and Vampires from Necromancy - both level 3 creatures!"

You could but the bigger the stack of Vampires is the higher battle value it has, and the value increase is better than linear progression of numbers. A stack with 100 Vampires will easily defeat one stack with 80 Vampires + 20 Venom Spawn. (If for no other reason, because they can drain health from the Venom Spawn.)

"So in Stronghold the Might heroes cost 2500? Well, something's wrong with Stronghold - to balance it they make things both easier and more difficult for it???"

Stronghold have expensive structures to balance cheap creatures.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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Lews_Therin
Lews_Therin


Promising
Famous Hero
posted May 06, 2002 04:33 PM

Ornithology? What does this miserable game or your endless text about it have to do with birds?


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darkspirit
darkspirit


Famous Hero
aka Zutus
posted May 06, 2002 04:38 PM

indeed, I was thinking the same about the birds, but the game certainly is great. So are birds actually...

like the old man in a certain commercial, in which a guy tries to get a job:
"interested in ornithology? Ornithology?*
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Young moles appear to be in full dispersal which means there are more moles per acre than at any other time of the year

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soulhunt79
soulhunt79

Tavern Dweller
posted May 06, 2002 10:46 PM

Just a few notes on your comments on the different towns.

Most of my thoughts on if a town is good or not takes into account its magic also.

Academy.  I find this easlily to be one of the best towns if not the best.  However this is only based on play with the AI.  Casting illusion is completly negated by 1 dispel.  So your genies create 50 titans or other creature and 1 dispel and they are gone.

My picks for creatures.  Titan and Genie.  Golem/Magi is a difficult choice.  One one hand with the golem you have a level 2 creature with 75% magic resist and 50 hit points.  Easily one of the best starting creatures in the game.  However the magi is a little more useful later on due to the spell casting.  Genie is a must I think.  Its spell casting is great and even if you don't use illusion the ice bolt is quite powerful.  The one problem I see is that all summons can't cast spells so creating an illusion of genies really doesn't work that well.

Stronghold.  Here I just think you might be placing too high of a price on resources.  They are a problem to start with you will have plenty is no time.  I believe the cyclops is the best unit for this town.  The main problem being there is no magic.

Necropolis.  I actually choose the venom spawn the only time I played this one.  Maybe it isn't as powerful as the vampire but they rarely died on me and it wasn't difficult to geta stack of 100+ after about 4-5 months.


Other notes
To me it seems that resources are one of your main concerns for choosing creatures.  I tend not to make this choice.  
As stated above they are a problem early in the game but later on they are not and I would always be wishing for the other creature.

One note on gold.  I find it make it a lot easier if my first hero is  Nobility/Estates/Mining.  Level they up to 10-12(get GM is nobility and estates) and you have an extra 1000 gold and creature production is up 50% for 1 town.  Then after that just go garrison the hero in a mine somewhere that an opponent probably wouldn't find them.  If you have 2 towns earlier I usually create 2 of these chars.  Later in the game they don't become that important at least for the gold.  The creature production is nice.

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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted May 07, 2002 09:53 AM

Quote:
Combat is offered so often becaus without it heroes are dead in one blow from an enemy.


A bit of an oversight don't you think? Surely there are better ways of making your heroes more balanced and durable than forcing Combat onto you? Some heroes don't want combat, so they have to be overly frail..
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Henl86
Henl86


Known Hero
oLd SkOoL RA2 OwNaH
posted May 07, 2002 04:20 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Combat is offered so often becaus without it heroes are dead in one blow from an enemy.


A bit of an oversight don't you think? Surely there are better ways of making your heroes more balanced and durable than forcing Combat onto you? Some heroes don't want combat, so they have to be overly frail..


What do you mean? Is someone holding a gun to your head saying choose combat or else? I don't think so... But if you want a hero that can take some damage you NEED combat. If they don't want combat, fine! That's why you're OFFERED skills, not forced.
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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted May 08, 2002 09:40 AM

The way you described it, it sure does sound like a gun is being forced to your head.

It's like saying "take combat or die..". You said yourself, it's being offered so much because you need it or you'll die too easily.

If you're offered a skill more often than others because you need it, it certainly sounds like you're being forced to take it. Maybe 'forced' is too strong a word, 'encouraged' is more like it. But still, I would rather it wasn't necessary that any skill was encouraged over another.
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Henl86
Henl86


Known Hero
oLd SkOoL RA2 OwNaH
posted May 08, 2002 01:45 PM

It's obvious that some skills will be more important than others... No you aren't forced to pick it, seems you don't like it, fine don't pick it. But you'll be at a big disadvantage because it's an important skill.
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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted May 08, 2002 03:40 PM

You seem to be misunderstanding the main point I'm trying to make.

You're not forced to pick it, but if they keep offering it, you really don't have a whole lot of other choices do you? You said yourself that if you don't pick it "you'll be dead in one blow". That in my book is forcing you to pick it.

If I don't want it, I shouldn't be offered it so much, and it shouldn't be designed to be necessary for survival. HPs for the hero are too small.
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted May 08, 2002 04:07 PM

The main point is that offerings of Combat are so abundant so you can easily reach level 10 without ever having been offered anything except Combat and the skill you started with.

So wherein lies the choice if you don't want Combat? The answer is that you're given none and that you must keep developing your main skill.

The only way to break this pattern is to seek tuition on the map and manage to give your hero two skill promotions (and note that these are both outside your level-ups choices) in another skill so your hero becomes an advanced class.

Once you become an advanced class, the matter of being offered Combat can often be ignored but is still annoying. Anyway, you tend to get it offered less frequently.

I'd have wanted to get a third skill offered in many cases, but instead I find myself being restricted to have two options at level-up instead of three which is a distinct disadvantage.

They really shouldn't have designed the skill system this way but relied on other methods. The skills are simply not balanced at the moment.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted May 08, 2002 05:34 PM

I agree.. By avoiding combat, I've had some high level heroes with only ONE primary skill (the magic skill). This is due to combat always popping up. If I manage to learn any other skill it's not from level ups.

Should be changed. Offer combat all the time for the might heroes. For the magic heroes (Druid, Mage, Necromancer, etc.) don't offer it so much. It doesn't make sense anyway, they aren't fighters.
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