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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Core Elements?
Thread: Core Elements?
MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted October 08, 2020 11:36 AM

Core Elements?

Okay, this isn't a thread about how to make 'the best' Heroes game, but more of a discussion about what are the most basic elements that make up a game that could recognisably be called "Heroes of Might and Magic". For me these are things like:
Economy - Basically what it was in 1-5 and 7, gold, wood and ore, and four rare resources.
Combat - Stack based combat.
Towns - Town-screens.
Skills - Not really bothered as long as there is one.

But what do you guys think?

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Baronus
Baronus


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 08, 2020 01:11 PM

Graphic.
Music.
Wonderful and easy game managment. Heroes III is only mouse left right click gameplay!!!!
A lot of monsters. A lot of map objects.
Open world.
Nonlinearism.
RMG.
Inteligent AI.

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Alon
Alon


Known Hero
posted October 08, 2020 09:37 PM

1. Fantasy setting.
2. Many factions - let's say 4+ to count Songs of Conquest.
3. Separate screens for town building, adventure map motion, and combat.
4. Fully turn-based mechanics, inc. combat.
5. Some element of RNG.
6. RPG elements including skills and leveling up.

Things that I'm notably not including:

- The resource system.
- Hero spellcasting.
- Fully stacked combat (although judging by Wargroove, there are real limits to non-stacked turn-based combat).
- 8+ factions.
- The primary vs. secondary skill distinction.
- Random encounters.

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veteran_player
veteran_player


Adventuring Hero
posted October 09, 2020 08:00 PM

MattII said:
Okay, this isn't a thread about how to make 'the best' Heroes game, but more of a discussion about what are the most basic elements that make up a game that could recognisably be called "Heroes of Might and Magic". For me these are things like:
Economy - Basically what it was in 1-5 and 7, gold, wood and ore, and four rare resources.
Combat - Stack based combat.
Towns - Town-screens.
Skills - Not really bothered as long as there is one.



These are indeed the core elements of strgy that date back to HoMM1. I would also suggest that map exploration plays a very important factor! The adventure map is at the very top of the strategic pyramid that comprises HoM&M! So that you have places to go, things to see, and many rewarding(hopefully!) encounters! Unlike more simple strgy incarnations, HoM&M traditionally has several layers of depth to it as well. In creating a new title, I would keep the vast majority of tenets that have survived in both HoMM1 and HoMMV! The series truly is fun as well, assuming one can get past childish nostalgia for HoMM3!
____________

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Jiriki9
Jiriki9


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
posted October 10, 2020 11:51 PM
Edited by Jiriki9 at 23:51, 10 Oct 2020.

Well it is difficult. For me, I think, it's those:

-Turn Based Strategy
-Seperate Combat, Adventure Map and Town Screen
-Unit Stacks
-Unit seperated in some kind of power levels/tiers
-Heroes leading armies (wether accompanying them or just from the back)
-Heroes can be developed like an rpg-character
-Heroes can learn and cast spells
-War Machines that are distinct from other units
-Fantasy Setting
-The setting as background, underlying theme and story-base - but not overly in front: so you can play the game without caring about the setting at all, but if you wish, it also feels immersive enough
-Nice to play in single player AND multiplayer

Thats only the core, though, and only that of it which I have in mind now.

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PandaTar
PandaTar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted October 11, 2020 09:16 PM
Edited by PandaTar at 21:18, 11 Oct 2020.

Very similar to some already stated:

*   Fantasy Setting;
*   Variety of Factions and Creatures a fantasy world should be really rich, to try and encompass many cultures;
*   Possibility to assemble armies preferably with limited numbers;
*   Kingdom management;
*   Exploration management;
*   Basic layout of battle, town and adventure map (at least);
*   Evolving unique Heroes;
*   Heroes actively taking actions in battle, or is it Armies of Might and Magic?;
*   Unique Skill sets added to general skills;
*   Turn-based;
*   Spell casting, whichever model used;
*   Not focused on balance (like it was pre-H3 era);
*   Challenging AI;
*   Non-Warhammer graphics. 2D or non-useless 3D application.
____________
"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS Portal 2

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Jiriki9
Jiriki9


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
posted October 11, 2020 10:04 PM

Panda...whilst I would also like many of your points - are these really the core aspect of homm in general? They seem more like your wishes for the next installment, especially since you mention things that have not always been in and then I feel the urge to ask: are parts 1-3 no homm games for you?! Because for me they are. One may (still) like them or not, they may be outdated and the next game, but they do fulfill the core(!) Aspects of homm, as these for me are only the basics...or as Matt said: the things necessary so a game can be called homm. Not the aspects that make it a great homm game.
Might apply to some other posts here as well...

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PandaTar
PandaTar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted October 11, 2020 11:25 PM

I actually didn't understand your question. In my point of view, all of these things were present at some moment in Heroes games, including the first ones, although at different moments. I do think they are core features today. If it was only to cite things that were recurring in most of/all instalments or so, I don't think we even need to list them.

*   Fantasy Setting: H1-H7
*   Variety of Factions and Creatures: H1-H7
*   Possibility to assemble armies: H1-H7
*   Kingdom management: H1-H7, more prominent from H4
*   Exploration management: H1-H7, with H6 resuming it
*   Basic layout of battle, town and adventure map (at least): H1-H7, H3 adding underground
*   Evolving unique Heroes: H3-H7
*   Heroes actively taking actions in battle: H4-H7
*   Unique Skill sets added to general skills: H5-H7
*   Turn-based: H1-H4, forgot how it works in H6-H7
*   Spell casting, whichever model used: H1-H7
*   Not focused on balance (like it was pre-H3 era): H1-H2, maybe H4
*   Challenging AI: none, but that's a core nonetheless
*   Non-Warhammer graphics: H1-H4, maybe H6?

I actually don't feel H6-H7 as Heroes games, if you ask me, not the opposite. I would even add Caravans, which were inserted in H4 and have been consolidated in later instalments.

Other things that I think could be core features, if well implemented, that is:

*   Town convertion: H6
*   Grail: H3
*   Governor system: H4

Not to mention Editor-friendly for map makers, another very important thing, that I forgot to mention. I think core features were always added, being H1 and H2 much simpler, so, with less core features. H2 is still my favourite. Don't think that I don't count that game for any second.
____________
"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS Portal 2

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Jiriki9
Jiriki9


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
posted October 12, 2020 09:23 PM

Maybe I was just tired when writing this.^^
I did not mean that we here should state what is in every game. I understood it like "if one of these things is not in HoMM 8 - it won't be a proper part of the series for me" ... and that, for me, is much to say. More than "I do not like the game."

Abotu H6 & 7....never played them so I can hardly talk about them...but you hardly hear good things 'bout them.

Maybe you can elaborate on the following points for me, just for clarification?
Quote:
Evolving unique Heroes: H3-H7

What do you mean by unique in this context and where is the jump from H2 to H3 for you?

Quote:
Not focused on balance (like it was pre-H3 era)

Actually I do not understand at all what you mean by that...gameplay balance? Between what? Might&Magic? Faction Strength? Faction Symmetry? Or Setting/Lore of Balance? (In each case, btw, I think H4 pretty much looking at balance, more so than H3 & 5, wether you see that as good or bad...)

Quote:
Challenging AI

I personally would prefer "Versatile AI". The Challenge level should be settable by the player, imo. I, for example, prefer low-mid challenges, because life is challenge enough and in games, I want to be able to have successes. What I would want, though, is an AI that is not utterly predictable (and thus, controllable), and that does not frequently do really dumb things (like leaving the city unguarded when the enemy main hero is in range...).

Quote:
Unique Skill sets added to general skills: H5-H7

do you mean something liek faction skills?

Quote:
Non-Warhammer graphics: H1-H4, maybe H6?

That is one thing where I have to say: is that really core? I WANT it that way, of course, but if everything else was perfect, but the graphics were Warhammer-style - I would not say it is not HoMM. ...although of course, if you feel that strong, it IS a legit point.

Other than these, I think our lists do share a lot points, though slightly different in how we phrased it sometimes.

Btw that all was NOT AT ALL meant as criticism, just as discussion, because I found your list intriguing but not immediately clear for me. (but agian: I was tired, so maybe the unclearness came from that.



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PandaTar
PandaTar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted October 13, 2020 05:21 AM

Jiriki9 said:

What do you mean by unique in this context and where is the jump from H2 to H3 for you?

In H1 and H2, heroes we basically the same, except photo, name and the starting skill; without any other thing to tell them apart within their own faction, you see. H3 heroes started feeling different from each other due their personal traits, specialty, parted to 2 classes, starting spells, control over inventory, and whanot.

Quote:
Actually I do not understand at all what you mean by that...gameplay balance? Between what? Might&Magic? Faction Strength? Faction Symmetry? Or Setting/Lore of Balance?

Oh, this one is not actually a core element. I added by mistake, most likely. But yeah, H2 was unbalanced on a whole. H4 was somehow buggy and had a lot of uneven features. Equilibris helped 'balancing' that, and fixing many things, not to mention making certain creatures usable, because some of them were just too good in comparison to their alternative.

Quote:
I personally would prefer "Versatile AI".

Hm, I see both things pretty similar. At different levels of difficulty, each one is a challenge. But I have not meant it to be an impossible task, but one that actually prompts us into playing and have fun with.

Quote:
do you mean something liek faction skills?

Yeah, that helps with some flavor of distinction between factions tied with their heroes.

Quote:
Non-Warhammer graphics: H1-H4, maybe H6?

^_^ Mostly, it's a matter of feeling. Starting from H4, the visuals impacted on me a lot, and something started to fade. But as you said, it might not be a core per se. It's just something that really impacted at how I felt about Heroes later on, too much fancy without really any need.

Quote:
Btw that all was NOT AT ALL meant as criticism, just as discussion, because I found your list intriguing but not immediately clear for me.

My apologies for my briskness, if it was how it seemed. Both of us were tired, apparently. But you're right, sometimes I have difficulties upon identifying some core features, if I don't pay much attention.
____________
"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS Portal 2

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted October 13, 2020 08:59 AM

PandaTar said:
Jiriki9 said:
What do you mean by unique in this context and where is the jump from H2 to H3 for you?

In H1 and H2, heroes we basically the same, except photo, name and the starting skill; without any other thing to tell them apart within their own faction, you see. H3 heroes started feeling different from each other due their personal traits, specialty, parted to 2 classes, starting spells, control over inventory, and whanot.
With H2 you get secondary skills, which is a significant change from H1.

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Jiriki9
Jiriki9


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
posted October 13, 2020 11:28 AM

MattII said:
PandaTar said:
Jiriki9 said:
What do you mean by unique in this context and where is the jump from H2 to H3 for you?

In H1 and H2, heroes we basically the same, except photo, name and the starting skill; without any other thing to tell them apart within their own faction, you see. H3 heroes started feeling different from each other due their personal traits, specialty, parted to 2 classes, starting spells, control over inventory, and whanot.
With H2 you get secondary skills, which is a significant change from H1.


I agree there, but still, I think Panda got a point about the specials, they made heroes much more unique indeed. The problem with the specials in H3 was, they were not really balanced imho. And thus I tend to take the same heroes each time, if I can...

PandaTar said:
Oh, this one is not actually a core element. I added by mistake, most likely. But yeah, H2 was unbalanced on a whole. H4 was somehow buggy and had a lot of uneven features. Equilibris helped 'balancing' that, and fixing many things, not to mention making certain creatures usable, because some of them were just too good in comparison to their alternative.

I was actually wondering wether you wanted balance, or the game NOT focusing on balance...

PandaTar said:
Hm, I see both things pretty similar. At different levels of difficulty, each one is a challenge. But I have not meant it to be an impossible task, but one that actually prompts us into playing and have fun with.

To that, I can agree full-heartedly. It should be an aim for ANY strategy game, to be honest...

Alon said:
2. Many factions - let's say 4+ to count Songs of Conquest.

4+ hardly feels many to me...I'd say everything below 6 would indeed be a bit low for me. I mean, it would not necessarily mean its no Homm, but I'd feel cheated...

Alon said:
Things that I'm notably not including:

- The resource system.
- Hero spellcasting.
- Fully stacked combat (although judging by Wargroove, there are real limits to non-stacked turn-based combat).
- 8+ factions.
- The primary vs. secondary skill distinction.
- Random encounters.

Interesting that you mention those, Alon. I would actually say that for me, spellcasting is hard to take out, although it's also hard if it is a CORE of the game. skill distinction is not necessary, but it added a ****ing LOT to the game and actually I would not like that wheel turned back. That applies to "Subskills" or however they may be called as well.

Baronus said:
Graphic.
Music.
Wonderful and easy game managment. Heroes III is only mouse left right click gameplay!!!!
A lot of monsters. A lot of map objects.
Open world.
Nonlinearism.
RMG.
Inteligent AI.

An interesting, but strange list for me, I must say. Because one could easily fulfill all these points without even making a TBS game. Many are more a basic for ANY game to aspire. And I must say I am not sure how "open world" an HoMM game is, especially on smaller maps. Depends on how you think the term, probably.

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PandaTar
PandaTar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted October 13, 2020 12:44 PM

Quote:
I was actually wondering wether you wanted balance, or the game NOT focusing on balance...

Oh, that. I am not fan of balance, which found its due because of multiplayer and it's being a pain since then (modders are still trying to find a proper way to balance it, btw). I think, even in fantasy, if things followed a natural order, it was not to follow a fair situation, which would then be applied to factions, creatures, heroes, spells and whanot. Which is a reason I feel like the game should have different mechanics for single player and multiplayer, but nothing interwined forcing its balance because humans need it to be competitive between themselves.
____________
"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS Portal 2

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Jiriki9
Jiriki9


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
posted October 13, 2020 02:05 PM

Interesting point of view...
I myself also prefer singleplayer, and have not so many multiplayer experiences - except hotseat, where there is not the same kind of competition I guess...

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veteran_player
veteran_player


Adventuring Hero
posted October 16, 2020 05:30 AM

Jiriki9 said:
Interesting point of view...
I myself also prefer singleplayer, and have not so many multiplayer experiences - except hotseat, where there is not the same kind of competition I guess...


Hot-seat is the meat&potatoes of this game! It is what got me interested in HoMM to begin with!

But regardless, nowadays I only play against the computer(at impossible difficulty!) but it is rewarding nonetheless!

The most internalized Core Element of HoMM is competition! Competition between players; competition between heroes; and the contested niches in-between!

However, we cannot let Ubisoft make this into a commercial contest! Like the Euro Vs. the Dollar; or Djokovic Vs. Nadal!

MMH-VII failed us completely. It would be an under-statement to say that we need better!

That's why I am suggesting that the next possible incarnation be completely revamped, not unlike how HoMMV/5.5 was and has been!

The players need better!!!
____________

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