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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Heroes 3: Intelligence skill
Thread: Heroes 3: Intelligence skill This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · «PREV
BTB
BTB


Known Hero
Moist & Creamy
posted October 15, 2020 10:06 PM
Edited by BTB at 22:11, 15 Oct 2020.

From my experience playing my own mod (I have similar Mysticism settings to HotA, capping out at 15 points at master), my heroes with Mysticism rarely if ever need to seek out a town or well to recharge whereas the ones that don't really only reach that point when they break 10 knowledge or so.

(Bearing in mind that my mod removes Intelligence entirely, none of the maps I play on feature Magic Springs, and the Wizard's Well is heavily nerfed. I also edit spell point costs across the board, so by and large I've created an environment where Mysticism can actually be useful as intended.)

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 15, 2020 11:25 PM
Edited by Phoenix4ever at 23:26, 15 Oct 2020.

Mysticism is also quite good in my map and with my rules.
I am curious BTB, how did you nerf Wizard's Well? I have completely disabled it, exactly because I think it ruins Mysticism. I have also disabled Magic Springs and Altar of Mana.

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BTB
BTB


Known Hero
Moist & Creamy
posted October 15, 2020 11:54 PM

Remember I'm working with SoD, not HotA, so I can use the hack that reduces its effect to the component effects + MaxSP/10

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 16, 2020 07:46 AM

Yes I know, but that should also work with HotA, right? How did you enable the change? I would like to test it.

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BTB
BTB


Known Hero
Moist & Creamy
posted October 16, 2020 05:37 PM

0C7F5F: 0F > 0E ;
0C7F60: 0F > DB ;
0C7F61: BF > 45 ;
0C7F62: 0E > F8 ;
0C7F63: 8B > D8 ;
0C7F64: 45 > 0D ;
0C7F65: F8 > 48 ;
0C7F66: 3B > 83 ;
0C7F67: C1 > 67 ;
0C7F68: 7E > 00 ;
0C7F69: 27 > 50 ;
0C7F6A: 66 > DB ;
0C7F6B: 89 > 1C ;
0C7F6C: 06 > E4 ;
0C7F6D: EB > 58 ;
0C7F6E: 22 > 0F ;
0C7F6F: 0F > BF ;
0C7F70: BF > 1E ;
0C7F71: 1E > 01 ;
0C7F72: 8B > C3 ;
0C7F73: CF > 90 ;

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 16, 2020 06:46 PM

That is a long patch, but I just tested it and it seems to work.

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BTB
BTB


Known Hero
Moist & Creamy
posted October 16, 2020 07:04 PM

Well, there you go then. Glad to help.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted October 21, 2020 11:15 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 23:16, 21 Oct 2020.

I'd be more fine with gradual nerfs. 100% down to 50% literally halves the skill. That's a lot. There are not many things in a typical videogame meta that can be halved and still be useful - that's a kind of nerf reserved for broken things.

I'd be happy with 25-50-75% and checking for impact of the nerf. HotA team went nuclear on the skill.

That being said, Intelligence is a boring skill. it's literally just a knowledge multiplier. Poor design in the first place.
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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 21, 2020 11:32 PM

Yeah it was a hard nerf, but 100% was also kinda broken.

If Intelligence is boring, could'nt you say the same thing about Offense, Armorer, Archery and Sorcery then?

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BTB
BTB


Known Hero
Moist & Creamy
posted October 22, 2020 01:25 AM
Edited by BTB at 01:29, 22 Oct 2020.

Phoenix4ever said:
Yeah it was a hard nerf, but 100% was also kinda broken.

If Intelligence is boring, could'nt you say the same thing about Offense, Armorer, Archery and Sorcery then?


You'd REALLY think. But this shows off a really interesting quirk in the psychology of design. While all of these skills are essentially straight buffs to core stats in practice, Intelligence is the only one that sticks out and feels out of place. And I think I've figured out why.

While some things can snow with your CURRENT SP, Intelligence is the game's only modifier to MAXIMUM SP. Damage has a whole bunch of other things going into it, so all of the other skills feel like they're working ALONGSIDE the primary stat, not straight-up buffing it. If maximum SP had several other factors going into it, then Intelligence would be a different story. But since maximum SP is otherwise a direct reflection of your knowledge stat, a skill affecting it feels tantamount to a skill altering your Knowledge directly, and thus it comes out feeling halfassed.

Other contributors to this feeling are 1) the existence of the Mysticism skill making Intelligence feel redundant, and 2) the fact that Intelligence can result in maximum SP no longer being a nice round number (i.e. a multiple of 10). This makes it extremely displeasing on an aesthetic level, and thus "boring".

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 22, 2020 07:55 AM
Edited by Phoenix4ever at 07:57, 22 Oct 2020.

You might be right about Intelligence being boring because only Intelligence really affects max. spell points, besides Knowledge of course.

To the bit about you no longer having a nice round amount of spell points I just have to say LOL. It's just a number, but I guess some people OCD over the smallest things.

If I had to remove Intelligence or Mysticism, it would be Mysticism though, as there are many things that ruin Mysticism and it does'nt do anything for town defenders.

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BTB
BTB


Known Hero
Moist & Creamy
posted October 22, 2020 08:00 AM

Phoenix4ever said:
To the bit about you no longer having a nice round amount of spell points I just have to say LOL. It's just a number, but I guess some people OCD over the smallest things.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHHg99hwQGY&t=4m42s

This is one of the most critical videos I've ever watched about game design. If you have an hour to set aside, it's worth watching the whole thing and not just this bit I'm linking to.

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 22, 2020 08:08 AM

Sure, I might watch that video today.

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heymlich
heymlich


Known Hero
posted October 23, 2020 01:57 PM
Edited by heymlich at 13:59, 23 Oct 2020.

Intelligence is a skill for slot 8. I somtimes pick it. I don't see, why it should be weaker than the original 100%, so what is this about?

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 23, 2020 02:12 PM
Edited by Phoenix4ever at 14:12, 23 Oct 2020.

In HotA it's only 50%, so clearly they thought it was too powerful and so does a lot of other people apparently.
I personally think 50% or 60% is fine and the same with Mana Vortex.

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zmudziak22
zmudziak22


Supreme Hero
Heroes 3 Fan
posted October 23, 2020 03:51 PM

20-40-60 % would be good nerf, especially that Ayden, Andra and Elleshar with High Level + Mana Vortex/Spring could reach 10k spell points.
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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted October 24, 2020 10:02 AM

Phoenix4ever said:
In HotA it's only 50%, so clearly they thought it was too powerful and so does a lot of other people apparently.



I have no idea what the high level MP meta was over an year ago, but atleast in the last year's Polish championship finals, the current top player in MP Davidu picked Elleshar as his starting hero on a mirrored template.
Now, that's pretty insane pick for a MP game, as usually the players want as good early game hero as possible to begin with, and Elleshar is simply giving you zero tempo. He's opponent is playing as Ivor, and it seems there were no restrictions of starting heroes (unfortunately there's a language barrier), so Davidu could have picked Kyrre, Meph, Coronius, Jenova etc. So, in other words, Davidu is confident enough to give up all the possible early game tempo, and bets he can win as a high level Elleshar in the late game.

I think this style of play highly effected Hota team's choice of nerfing intelligence.

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Ghost
Ghost


Legendary Hero
Therefore I am
posted October 24, 2020 12:44 PM

Doom!
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Fight MWMs - stand teach

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