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| Thread: The CCP is Exploiting us!! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Zenofex
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Kreegan-atheist
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posted November 17, 2020 07:52 AM |
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Blizzardboy said:
I think you just like to disagree with me 
Private is much, much better at generating wealth because it works with human nature instead of against it. And yes, you can find a common metric if you attempt to emulate what private does with a state entity, and vice versa, although to some extent they are interconnected, private is forced to provide optimal value for the sake of its own survival and shareholders. People have attempted the government owning the means of production on 5 continents and they have always failed and caused immeasurable suffering. How many field tests before enough is enough?
Well yeah, I like to disagree with incorrect statements.  You keep repeating more of the same thing, built on a premise which is both wrong and terribly oversimplified. Hint - state exists since the dawn of civilization all around the globe, "private" has some 300 years to its name, in certain countries and in certain context only.
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Salamandre
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Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 17, 2020 11:21 AM |
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Rimgrabber said:
As for your comparison of wealth redistribution to the Holocaust, all I can say is... lol. If you can't tell the difference between someone saying "hey maybe 8 people owning the same amount of wealth as the poorest half of the entire world's population is unethical and unsustainable" and someone saying "Jews are genetically impure and we should murder them all.
Looks like you are very confused about what means wealth redistribution. It is not depriving people of their hard work earnings manu militari, but coming with a fair taxation system which then allows fair redistribution. So far, the Western world has the best system in that matter. Can it be improved, certainly yes, but not in the direction you propose.
What you advocate, fortunately, is unrealistic even at the most radical levels of the left. The main obstacle in your way is that wealthy people, exactly because they are wealthy, have what it takes to move elsewhere, so hammering them with pseudo moralistic tantrums, extra taxes and aggressive confiscation of their earnings will just make them go away.
Who then will provide taxes so the poor and the unfortunate can survive? You, through your "worthy voluntary" work which you didn't even start but already brag about?
Let's be serious.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 17, 2020 12:36 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Looks like you are very confused about what means wealth redistribution. It is not depriving people of their hard work earnings manu militari, but coming with a fair taxation system which then allows fair redistribution. So far, the Western world has the best system in that matter.
The Western world? Hardly, because the US have everything but that. In fact, if you look at the differences in taxation within said Western World, "fair" isn't the word that comes to mind. Especially not, when millionaires themselves demand higher taxes for the rich, which part of them do.
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted November 17, 2020 02:12 PM |
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Mistake is because private is to abstractive word.
Private FREE MARKET works better than state monopol.
But state monopol is better than private monopol!
Eg. Federal Reserve is private monopoly and we have global pandemonium with it!
Microsoft was monopoly too and the same.
Adam Smith?! said that monopoly is as thugs on the road. State monopoly is as policeman.
In US we have monopolisation. Facebook Google MS and worst are financial monopolys!
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Rimgrabber
Promising
Famous Hero
Voice in Gelu's Head
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posted November 17, 2020 02:42 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Looks like you are very confused about what means wealth redistribution. It is not depriving people of their hard work earnings manu militari, but coming with a fair taxation system which then allows fair redistribution. So far, the Western world has the best system in that matter. Can it be improved, certainly yes, but not in the direction you propose.
What you advocate, fortunately, is unrealistic even at the most radical levels of the left. The main obstacle in your way is that wealthy people, exactly because they are wealthy, have what it takes to move elsewhere, so hammering them with pseudo moralistic tantrums, extra taxes and aggressive confiscation of their earnings will just make them go away.
Who then will provide taxes so the poor and the unfortunate can survive? You, through your "worthy voluntary" work which you didn't even start but already brag about?
Let's be serious.
And it looks like you're very confused about what I'm suggesting. Wealth redistribution via taxation is *exactly* what I advocate for. The only thing that I suggested seizing, and really, "purchasing" is a much more accurate term since I would have the current property owners compensated with the amount of money the property is worth, are apartment complexes, and I 10000% will die on that hill because I believe that people having a roof to sleep under is more important than landlords' profits. Feel free to disagree, but don't act like it's some crazy radical idea and you're more reasonable than I am for believing that property rights are more important than the right to survival.
And I'm not sure what you mean by wealthy people will "leave." They'll take all their money and hide it in offshore tax havens? They already do that. it's a simple matter of closing the loopholes in tax laws that allow them to do that. They'll simply take all their assets and leave the country? No, they won't, because if they take everything and leave the United States they forfeit their access to the market here and lose much, much more money than they do by paying more taxes.
As for me "bragging" about "work I haven't started yet," I have started, I'm quite active, and I'm not bragging. I only even mentioned it because you asked me what I do.
And finally, I will just restate this: If you want to have an actual discussion about the problems the world faces and what possible ways there are of dealing with them, great, but I'm not interested in listening to you talk down to me with your false sense of moral superiority. Cheers.
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Salamandre
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Wog refugee
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posted November 17, 2020 04:18 PM |
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Rimgrabber, I absolutely have no intention to hold any moral position or superiority because I don't believe morals should play in when discussing such things, but common sense and fairness. Morals are a concept with so many nuances and extensions, one should define all its ones before coming to an agreement.
Nobody would want to live in a country where the state penalize the successful individuals then rewards with free stuff the ones who fail. That can't exist, no matter how much entitled brats whine about, is just unrealistic, impossible. People are smart, aware of their own interest and will move away if targeted. Yes, they will leave US and will lose nothing but win all, as the market is universal and knows no borders.
Sure, life can be at times unfair and cruel, you can become ill, lose your job because reasons independent from your will, but in such situations the Western system provides quite a decent help, ensuring your basic survival for the time to recover.
But considering that all homeless are somehow victims of "wealthy and immoral" people therefore the wealthy people should provide them with all commodities is foolish, then fascism when you add the option to seize their earnings and just hand them out.
If you want to reduce poverty, look at its causes. The real ones, not the ones created for electoral purpose. Hint: it has to do with people poor life choices. Teach them to avoid such situations, instead of telling them someone else is responsible.
Because it is not true.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 17, 2020 04:28 PM |
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PandaTar
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posted November 17, 2020 04:33 PM |
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That's a matter happening in my country, political conflicts regarding whether the rich should 'sustain' the poor. That's one reason the Left lost presidency.
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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fred79
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 17, 2020 04:58 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Hint: it has to do with people poor life choices. Teach them to avoid such situations, instead of telling them someone else is responsible.
i'll call bs on that. corporate monopolies on goods and garbage humans driving the price of everything through the roof, while the standard pay for the people who actually made all those at the top rich remaining bs after so many years... the minimum wage, and lower wages in general, have not really changed to reflect inflation, at all.
i used to work as a stock clerk for a grocery store. hard physical work, when you're working a huge store moving a lot of product every couple of days. pay started at $10 an hour. now, compare that to how much money comes in on the truck every other day: anywhere from 18k to 28k and beyond. EVERY OTHER DAY. do i need to even mention the markup that product was sold to the general public for? the company was making an OBSCENE amount of profit off of this. did the lower employees ever see more pay because of these profits? no. but, the management and corporate surely snowing did.
i'll go into the pay scale, regarding jobs at this grocery store. the stock clerks, who were moving all the freight, were making the least($10/hr) while doing the most actual work, while the next-step up, assistant managers, made $4 more an hour. that's not bad, right? well, it depends on what KIND of assistant manager you have. we were lucky enough to have one that actually laid his hands on the freight, same as the stock clerks. other stores in that same company? not so lucky.
i'll bet you're wondering about the managers' pay. tack on $10-$20 more an hour, just for sitting on their asses all goddamn day doing next to nothing. and beyond them? that's when the pay scale gets REALLY obscene. everyone at corporate, for all their idiotic changes that ALWAYS made things worse for us, got paid OBSCENE amounts of cash. worse? they didn't even HAVE to work the hours we did, OR do any sort of ACTUAL, BENEFICIAL, PRODUCTIVE WORK to earn their pay.
so no, it doesn't always have to do with "poor people life choices". that doesn't even always apply, when you're talking about just the HOMELESS.
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Blizzardboy
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Nerf Herder
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posted November 17, 2020 05:15 PM |
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Upper management needs to make decisions that can drastically affect shareholders and that means a high pay scale to attract the right people. For a pay scale, it isn't about hard work / not hard work. It is mostly about availability. There's a very finite amount of highly skilled people with an MBA or such, but an enormous pool of people that can be cashiers.
After a certain point that scaling becomes bugged but there are ways to debug it through progressive taxing.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Rimgrabber
Promising
Famous Hero
Voice in Gelu's Head
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posted November 17, 2020 05:18 PM |
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@PandaTar out of curiosity, what country do you live in? International politics is an interest of mind and I'd like to know more.
Salamandre said:
Rimgrabber, I absolutely have no intention to hold any moral position or superiority because I don't believe morals should play in when discussing such things, but common sense and fairness. Morals are a concept with so many nuances and extensions, one should define all its ones before coming to an agreement.
Nobody would want to live in a country where the state penalize the successful individuals then rewards with free stuff the ones who fail. That can't exist, no matter how much entitled brats whine about, is just unrealistic, impossible. People are smart, aware of their own interest and will move away if targeted. Yes, they will leave US and will lose nothing but win all, as the market is universal and knows no borders.
Sure, life can be at times unfair and cruel, you can become ill, lose your job because reasons independent from your will, but in such situations the Western system provides quite a decent help, ensuring your basic survival for the time to recover.
But considering that all homeless are somehow victims of "wealthy and immoral" people therefore the wealthy people should provide them with all commodities is foolish, then fascism when you add the option to seize their earnings and just hand them out.
If you want to reduce poverty, look at its causes. The real ones, not the ones created for electoral purpose. Hint: it has to do with people poor life choices. Teach them to avoid such situations, instead of telling them someone else is responsible.
Because it is not true.
You're telling me you had the answers to solving poverty all along? Well what are you waiting for! If it's as simple as "making good choices" go and write the guide to do so and claim for Nobel Prize! But it's not nearly that simple, as you surely know. It's not as simple as "work hard and you'll be successful." Humans are naturally driven and innovative creatures as evidenced throughout history, so if it was that simple everyone would be successful. What situations are you teaching them to avoid, exactly? Being born into an impoverished family? Ever having medical problems so their health insurance company can't price gouge them? You say that the wealthy shouldn't sustain the poor and then turn around and tout how the west has great welfare so people can always get back on their feet so which is it? Who do you think is getting taxed to pay for that? Universal housing is just the next logical step. It's already done in Vienna BTW so it's not like its some absurd communist pipe dream.
There are countless factors at play and you're oversimplifying it to the point where it would be comical if this school of thought hadn't led to worse wealth inequality than in France just before their revolution. As I already explained, there are 3 times as many vacant homes as there are homeless in America. The only reason homelessness exists is that it is more profitable than giving people universal housing. So what are these people a victim of if not greed? Please enlighten me. Laziness? No, it's almost always health problems they can't afford to treat or poverty wages. Do you know how I know that? Because I meet homeless people when I'm volunteering and listen to their stories.
Wages have been stagnant for decades despite worker productivity continually rising. There are people working 2 full-time jobs in America that are still barely getting by. Again, there is absolutely no reason for that other than greedy bosses refusing to pay their employees a living wage. None whatsoever. You think prices are going to shoot through the roof? Then why hasn't that happened in the Nordic countries?
Actually, forget it. You're clearly not going to consider anything I tell you so I don't know why I'm wasting my time. Go ahead and continue to believe that systemic poverty doesn't exist and it's all a scam to win votes even though barely any politicians propose policies that would actually address the policies, meaning all they're doing is shooting themselves in the foot. I sincerely wish you a wonderful day.
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fred79
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 17, 2020 05:19 PM |
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Blizzardboy said:
Upper management needs to make decisions that can drastically affect shareholders and that means a high pay scale to attract the right people. For a pay scale, it isn't about hard work / not hard work. It is mostly about availability. There's a very finite amount of highly skilled people with an MBA or such, but an enormous pool of people that can be cashiers.
maybe you didn't read the part about how they were making obscene profits that only benefit themselves and no one else? maybe you didn't read the part where i made it clear none of the changes they ever made were WORTH a snow?
i'd go more in-depth to explain how easy their job is, but you wouldn't listen, anyway. you haven't thus far.
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Salamandre
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Wog refugee
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posted November 17, 2020 05:22 PM |
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fred, this Shapiro analysis may provide a different perspective on the problems you mentioned.
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Blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted November 17, 2020 05:25 PM |
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fred79 said:
Maybe you didn't read the part about how they were making obscene profits that only benefit themselves and no one else? maybe you didn't read the part where i made it clear none of the changes they ever made were WORTH a snow?
i'd go more in-depth to explain how easy their job is
A) I read it. You made a claim that so and so did such and such. That doesn't make it true.
B) If their job is easy, then go take their job if you're interested. Lay out a full plan to a board of people about what an awesome job you'd do. You should have no problem convincing them, yes?
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 17, 2020 05:29 PM |
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Blizzardboy said:
A) You made a claim that so and so did such and such. That doesn't make it true.
unlike leftists, i don't make claims that are untrue. especially regarding something i personally had insider knowledge and experience of.
i've seen the same thing everywhere i have ever worked, everywhere i have ever been; those at the top profit off of those at the bottom. you'd have to be insane or retarded not to know this by now.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 17, 2020 05:42 PM |
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Salamandre said:
fred, this Shapiro analysis may provide a different perspective on the problems you mentioned.
mr. shapiro is missing 2 major, glaring factors in his argument:
1. all of the so-called "capital" that he invested, he made back many times over with his markup of product and sales throughout his company's existence. the socialist is not wrong in pointing out, that WITHOUT THE WORKERS, he WOULDN'T HAVE that capital returned and multiplied.
which is why, these same vermin at the top, outsource jobs to make even MORE money off the poor. which is why, many lower-end jobs become AUTOMATED, so they can save/make even MORE money; while sticking it to people who could USE that capital.
i'm not saying that ALL of the poor would make good decisions with that extra capital coming their way, but MANY could definitely USE that extra capital FAR MORE than any ceo could.
2. mr. shapiro talks about the threat of "loss" that a lower worker would not face if his company went under, but what about the EMPLOYMENT of all those employees under him?
i mean, seriously. nothing that bonehead said contradicts what I said, at all; it only proves how out of touch he is, with being poor.
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PandaTar
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posted November 17, 2020 06:10 PM |
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@Rimgrabber
Brazil. The left parties governed here, I think, all my life. In spite of things that work(ed), there were a lot of things that didn't and still don't. Brazilian people are hard workers. However, they also grow quite accomodate when the government starts providing 'free' things. It is pretty common watching some people complaining about how little the government provides them, when they didn't work a single time in their life (speaking of those I know). There are a lot of ... discrepancies around what Left parties do and what they say, which have become a real source of problems to them, now that the right is growing. Some of them are so utterly bizarre, it feels like a joke. The state was becoming really bloated and very expensive also, which, one way of another, would be shouldered by someone. Brazil is one of the countries with most taxes of all. A regular person here works around 4 months of the year only to pay taxes. If these taxes were converted properly to public services, I really wouldn't think it that bad. However ...
One thing that proves, especially if one has lived in this country will know the entire story, how left wing was doing things wrong or not properly is what's happening in the Northeast region. That's the poorest region of this country. One of the oldest, but it has a lot of problems with climate, semi arid and quite 'forgotten', except when elections are around. People there have not much support in education either – it's been like that for decades ... – and they just know what they know and what others need them to know, like in any other country who knows no better (example, North Koreans are mostly cut from the rest of the world, so, for those, their country is the best role model, which in our point of view is absurd). So, when elections were coming for years and years, you would have a politician, a known one, show and say that something would be done. Then print a lot of flyears and posters and that would be their reality. To be fair, some social programs did help the poor at some point. But it didn't hit the source of the problem. It gave things, but it did not provide, if you know what I mean. But the idea started to surmount that depending on the state and having a state full of small 'gifts' was really good, prouding that it was good have population depend on state leftovers, whilst politians swim in money, corruption running hither and thither with little stopping. Left parties, specially the most radical ones, then, ruled ever in the Northeast. However, now with Bolsonaro, who's party-less at this point, however right wing by duty, he finished stuff that were being put on hold for decades by the left wing, because it was not interesting to be finished because it would bring more autonomy to that region, which would still depend heavily on the state. Bolsonaro is focusing on having those people the means to work and have them get the tools to be able to free themselves from the state, from social assistance and, thus, leaving poverty. That reflects on his popularity, because the locals recognize those results, showing that the region where Bolsonaro is growing popular the fastest. Northeast people are really hard workers and, aside some exceptions, of course, they are much less to get accomodated by state's scraps and would strive much more to get a better life, if they were really helped and provided with tools to make things happen for themselves.
Meanwhile, in other regions where things are less dire, you have a lot of 'lazy' people and some strange reasoning. Human Rights that seem to forget police officers and military are also humans. Students who love to smoke illegal stuff complaining about violence brought by drug dealers at their neighborhood, and loves a strike for whichever reason, then complains the system is not fair, whilst their parents are maintaining them. Rich artists urging people not to leave home, whilst a lot of people cannot stop working or they won't have food at their table. Some random congressman saying Capitalism is a doom, whilst posting his thoughts by using the latest iPhone and wearing expensive clothings, defending governments like Cuba, Venezuela, then leaving the country to live in Spain. The list goes on. These are the simplest things, because I start to feel nauseated speaking about my country's political situation.
The political shakedown was bound to happen. Brazilians went into a slumber for few decades ever since the Military left the power, but not having alternated power between right and left made some problems to take root, instead of addressed, looking for a balance, for each side has its flaws. So, they simply went from one extreme to the other. It's like throwing a ball in a lake, it'll go deep, then surface and jump back a little, then fall again, until, maybe, find a balance on the surface. The Center is still to be defined in reality. Right now, Brazilians are trying the other side of the coin, but it's a tough work, because some ideologies – and interests – are cemented by the left wing. Still, people need to learn.
We currently have 33 parties registered, most of them are from the left wing. Several the extreme left. My city just reelected a DEM mayor, for example. There was just one right wing candidate. The others, I think, ten of them were left wing. If we are are not given other views of things, we'll never get to know what can be changed, and what can be improved; and, of course, what cannot be worsened. We'll just speculate and try to reason or find solutions that are not real, considering each country is unique and each moment is unique too. Things cannot be immutable, because people are not – and the world is not either.
There are two sides of a coin, but it still struggles on its own Z axys whilst turning about, fighting for some balance in this madness.
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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Rimgrabber
Promising
Famous Hero
Voice in Gelu's Head
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posted November 17, 2020 06:15 PM |
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Thank you. That was a good read. I will look into it further. We have a similar opposite situation in the United States. Both the 2 major parties and the biggest minor party are right-wing economically and neoliberalism has absolutely devasted the working class here while all our tax money goes to funding offensive wars and corporate bailouts. The vast majority of us want universal healthcare for instance but both parties by and large refuse to support it. There's a growing left-wing insurgency in the democratic party, but the leadership of the party and the "news" work overtime to prevent them from getting anything concrete done. Of course, there are other smaller parties but people are too scared to vote for them because from middle school we're taught that you simply HAVE TO vote for one of the 2 major parties because none of the minor ones will ever win any election ever and if you vote for them you're wasting your vote and you're allowing the evil republicans to hurt immigrants or the evil democrats to murder babies and steal your guns. While in reality, there is very little difference in policy between the two aside from a few cultural issues like the ones I just mentioned. On wars, corporatism, union-busting, deregulation, and refusal to address climate change they either agree or the democrats just defer to whatever the republicans want to give the illusion of bi-partisanship, which the media fawns over regardless of whatever it might be that they're agreeing on. Don't get me wrong, occasionally something good will happen, but it's few and far between.
My 1# biggest issue with Bolsonaro is his abysmal handling of climate change-related issues and how he has allowed the Amazon to burn. I've mentioned this before somewhere, but to me, nothing else matters if we don't live on a habitable planet, so climate change is the overriding factor for everything else. I try to avoid taking too strong of a stance on other countries' politics because my opinion is by in large uninformed and doesn't matter anyway, though, so take it with a grain of salt.
Now, I think I'm going to dip out of this thread because I argue about politics enough in real life, and while it might be a little late at this point I'd rather not have the community's opinions of me and my opinions of them shaped by politics.
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PandaTar
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posted November 17, 2020 06:42 PM |
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The Amazon matter is something delicate. It's being exposed a lot these days, but one would think Amazon was not being devastated since ever. We had a very hectic year in 2009, for example. But these things are not remembered by our media, which is heavily left winged.
This is the second year of Bolsonaro's rule. I think that, if he failed on something, was to make some wildfire contingency work. And if they are criminal, to be addressed as such. Still, something really meaningful was not done, in spite of even some government accords back then, which stopped being funding after a while for lack of real involvement.
Another thing that's important to keep in mind is: if all world continues with deforastation, in a few decades, Brazil will have more than 50% of the forests on the globe. That's not our responbility alone. That shows the failure of all other countries to do their jobs also in that matter. And that's considering if deforastion continues here, not halts. So, you see, the world does not need Amazon itself, it doesn't and it won't control the weather or the world. The world needs to look back into their history of their own environmental crimes and try to do something about it on their premises first. Try to recover native forests and try to save what's left. It's everyone's job. I think other governments are too focused on what's happening here and they are forgetting to look into the mirror.
Bolsonaro might address that the next years, because once this pandemic is over, which took up the priority eventually, there will be no excuses to be lax. And the population will voice that over. Pantanal was devastated by wildfires, which is, in a sense, much worse than what happend in Amazon. But this bad climate itself is a result of a global deterioration, not only here. As faulty as this president is, also sometimes his stupid speeches are stuff of legend, he has been right at some points and the left wing does not admit that, even when the results are there to everyone to see it. That's hurting left wing itself, instead of improving, because it would be much better for all if they simply saw that some decisions would be better the other way around, and try to emulate that hence.
The left wing which ruled here for many decades also failed on finding a solution for Amazon. As much as Bolsonaro did not help much on that regard, I think it's pretty unfair to blame him on the whole situation, much less to forget the rest of the world's blame on their lack of solutions on their own gardens as well.
____________
"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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Blizzardboy
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posted November 17, 2020 07:42 PM |
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It would be nice if there was a South American Union to create joint policies related to the Amazon since only half of it is on Brazil or something.
I feel bad being opinionated about the Amazon but it's like over quarter of the entire world's land species in a relatively small area so it is hard not to be since it is kind of a big deal. I would be strongly supportive of other countries, especially rich countries, contributing to Amazonian forest preservation but since that would come with conditions (monitoring how the money is being used) that might anger SA countries.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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