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| Thread: Town creatures in HotA PvP | |
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gavinmagnus
Tavern Dweller
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posted November 15, 2020 07:49 PM |
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Town creatures in HotA PvP
Heroes 3 has nearly a hundred unique creatures. A Factory with new and interesting creatures will appear soon. Unfortunately, in PvP we can only see three creatures: Angels, Wyverns, Cyclops.
I would like to invite you for a discussion -
Would HotA PvP be better if there were more creatures from towns rather than banks? Is there a way to implement this?
In my opinion, PvP would be much more interesting if we could observe different compositions of creatures. Unfortunately, I couldn't figure out how to make the town expansion profitable in PvP. I think this can be improved in many ways, for example, by being able to multiply the growth of all creatures by x3.
How would the game change if there were more creatures from towns?
[url=https://imgbb.com/] [/url]
- More interaction and decisions - over 60 unique unit skills will create many interesting situations. If my opponent plays as a mage, maybe I should build golems? If he buys level 7 units, should I upgrade pirates / gorgons?
- More interesting battles - the final battle is not won by simply farming more angels.
- Red Rush - being able to only buy creatures from cities would give a great advantage to the red player. This effect can be reduced by giving too little gold. For example, at 117, both players will buy 50% of the army pool for all the gold. In 121, the red player has very little gold and can only buy a few new units.
Another idea is to create the map in a such way, that the players will meet at 122. This can be done like Jebus, with a very strong guard for the middle zone. To defeat him, player must buy an army from the new week. The middle zone is empty, it is used only for attacking the enemy. Players aim to collect rewards from their zone, and when they are ready, they attack the middle zone and the enemy.
- More economic decisions - creatures must be bought, you don't get an army for free. The player must choose whether to buy a new hero or creatures.
- Ban Armageddon or ban Conflux - Phoenix is the fastest unit in the game, and over 50% of creatures in Conflux are immune to Armageddon. It's impossible to balance
Why do I think that currently it is not possible in PvP?
[url=https://imgbb.com/][/url]
- Heroes 3 is designed for a slower game. You can only build one building per day, and the army spawns once a week. Heroes are very cheap and give almost 2000 movement points in return.
Also, there are no restrictions on the "teleportation" of the hero by escape. The new tavern hero has 100% movement and immediately becomes active. A chain of 8 HEROES can traverse an XL map from top to bottom in just ONE DAY WITHOUT ROADS. This is why most PvP games end in the second week.
Huge maps can be made, but playing PvP for over 12 hours is difficult.
- Average dwelling cost is 2 times the weekly creatures cost. So, for the construction to pay off, you need to wait for at least 131 (or 141 for level 7 creatures). It is very rare for a pvp game to last that long.
[url=https://ibb.co/L50M20X] [/url]
You can extend the game, for example:
- create a huge map - 12+ hours of gameplay
- ban the town portal / DD - probably no one wants to ban it, teleportation on the map gives a lot of fun
- giving players very little gold - for example M200. I think this might be too random. A good hero in a tavern can give a big advantage, and player doesn't have ebough gold to buy a few heroes and choose the best
- giving small timer - for example 1 Minute Madness. Personally, I like this template, but I'm afraid the gameplay does not work well for a tournament
You can increase the growth of creatures by giving the player more towns. Each town can build a level 7 dwelling in the first week. You can also build external creature dwellings. Unfortunately, it is quite difficult to create a sufficient number of dwellings.
Let's say that the map is poor. Let's say the heroes in the final battle will have around level 12, artifacts + 6 / + 7 and a few objects visited, for example two libraries. The average hero stats in the final battle will be 15/15/15/15. In fact, it is difficult to get lower stats without banning objects / artifacts.
Thus, the Implosion of an average hero deals 1400 damage. I think that in order to balance the power of the warrior / mage, on average the explosion should destroy 1/9 of the size of the army [I have seen different ratios, from 1/7 to 1/13. The ratio largely depends on what characteristics heroes can achieve. With a low level and characteristics, you can say that the explosion should kill a weak unit (for example, archers), but you can protect the unit with interference.]
1400 hp * 9 = 12 600 hp - this is how much health the army should have in the second week for the final battle. Each town produces an average of 1,100 health per week. So, we need 12 creature growths in the second week!
You can give the player 6 cities to start with and a huge amount of resources to build all the dwellings. However, managing the economy of so many IDENTICAL cities is a boring. In addition, providing players with such amount of resources would rather force them to build only the most important unit, and spend the rest for a mages guild (f.e. Firewalk).
It is also possible to put external dwellings on the map, but their number also must be huge. For two towns, we need 30 outer dwellings. It is impossible to be sure that all of them will be correctly generated in the template. Moreover, such game will be boring - the player needs to collect all the external dwellings and then repeat the same thing next week.
What could solve the problem?
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* Mode x2, x3, x4 where the growth of all creatures is multiplied. I think x3 would be the best option. 2 towns at the start of the game will give 12 base growths in the second week. In addition, the guardians of the outer dwellings will be challenging, but balanced - example [for one Castle zone, the Portal of Glory guards can be 15 champions on weak guards setting, or 5 Archangels on strong guards (then a fight with 9 angels). The Archers' Tower will be protected by 40 Oceanids (weak guards) or 30 Seamen (medium).
- This would encourage players to expand the town, because the player gets rewarded immediately
- Easy to implement. However, the full implementation should multiply everything: the growth of creatures, banks, the number of starting units for heroes, gold in treasure chests, mines, the cost of a hero, Estates, town hall ... The author of the template can compensate for the differences by presenting, for example, a Pandora's boxes with gold.
- The growth of the army is continuous, not discontinuous
- Red Rush is strong, template creator should prevent players from meeting before 122
- This does not violate the principle of classicism. It's the same game, only 3 times faster
Example: [url=https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1lM0VvJhlnPqzAb3K3hvb5DJFM058Vnqz?usp=sharing]https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1lM0VvJhlnPqzAb3K3hvb5DJFM058Vnqz?usp=sharing[/url]
[url=https://ibb.co/HCrMqYh] [/url] [url=https://ibb.co/ZfxTP98] [/url]
* "Town" banks
Banks can be added to the game and will always give you creatures from your city. So the conservatory of griffins will give you, for example, Behemoths
- Allows to keep interesting battles in banks
- Doesn't change the way we play today
- You cannot rebuild an army after losing a battle
- Difficult to implement
- Army growth is discontinuous
Example: [url=https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ICrNd4_zxAAbPHkvdLF59OCags-bJ0xT?usp=sharing]https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ICrNd4_zxAAbPHkvdLF59OCags-bJ0xT?usp=sharing[/url]
[url=https://ibb.co/HV8xSc6] [/url] [url=https://ibb.co/djr8Pnd] [/url]
* Each subsequent hero is more expensive - 2500, 3000, 3500 ...
Like in Heroes 5
- Slows down the game, allows the game to last more turns
- It takes more thinking about how to invest gold
- Doesn't allow to make huge chains
- You can check fewer heroes on the first day to decide about the restart
It's hard to show an example
* Events on the map give creatures
The map editor allows you to create events that add creatures to buy in the town. Perhaps it would be possible to add this functionality for templates.
- You can make monsters appear more often, for example, twice a week or every day, like in Heroes 4
- Lots of possibilities for the template maker
- No problem with Red Rush
- The map editor does not allow setting exact events for a random city. We can give X creatures of the chosen level. 10 Dwarfs are not the same as 10 Storm Elementals
- Difficult to implement
Example: [url=https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1gxwlqwigT1FbTHwfoeqHW6tws56QjOb2?usp=sharing]https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1gxwlqwigT1FbTHwfoeqHW6tws56QjOb2?usp=sharing[/url]
[url=https://ibb.co/L0hW1X3] [/url]
* Diplomacy
The template editor allows you to make creatures in the zone of the same type as the player's town, and always join them for gold.
- You can create "trade zones" where the player goes to buy creatures
- Very dependent on a random generator, f.e. player may not have enough Elves to buy
- Rogues / Vision become very powerful
- Artificial gameplay
- Very simple implementation
Example: [url=https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1X5ULyI2iDcOmccwUQ0OKRHt9qH2SuJMv?usp=sharing]https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1X5ULyI2iDcOmccwUQ0OKRHt9qH2SuJMv?usp=sharing[/url]
[url=https://ibb.co/0cCg58r] [/url]
* Army from Pandora's Boxes
- Artificial solution
- The player does not know which creature will be in the box, he cannot plan tactics
- Difficult to balance prizes - there can be 3 Archangels or 3 Haspids in the box
- Very simple implementation
Example: [url=https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1hnLJ47t8UJAlTPi08xy7CcxDoI1pA1N5?usp=sharing]https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1hnLJ47t8UJAlTPi08xy7CcxDoI1pA1N5?usp=sharing[/url]
[url=https://ibb.co/tph0WmZ] [/url]
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Pollo2002
Famous Hero
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posted November 26, 2020 07:52 AM |
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I will say the fact the game is about angels, wyverns and cyclops is the reasoni barely played heroes in the last years, this and earth magic being the only school of magic, are my 2 biggest problems with heroes
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FirePaladin
Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
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posted November 26, 2020 03:09 PM |
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Only the popular PvP is like that, since matches are relatively short.
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?
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