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Heroes Community > Volcanic Wastelands > Thread: m o d e r n i t y 5
Thread: m o d e r n i t y 5
Gandalf196
Gandalf196


Famous Hero
posted March 27, 2021 01:13 AM

m o d e r n i t y 5

https://youtu.be/gmOTjyUVaNI
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
Undorcover modder
posted March 27, 2021 01:36 AM

This is some serious doze of harsh, but true retardation of our reality.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted March 27, 2021 11:33 AM

"There’s not a single thing a man can do that a woman can’t do as well or better.  Not a single thing. "

It puzzles me how someone as Biden is allowed to pull such a blatant lie - with disastrous consequences if considered as fact - on National Television then nothing but crickets from scientists.

Put Rapinoe on men's teams then see how it goes. Reality.                            

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 27, 2021 12:17 PM
Edited by artu at 12:22, 27 Mar 2021.

Well, maybe sports were considered out of context since they rely on brute force, which is directly related to body weight. I mean, a middle-weight boxer is not put on the ring with a heavy-weight boxer either and there’s a reason for that.

If only we had more women like this!


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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted March 27, 2021 12:34 PM

First, sports to not rely on body weight only, while the best body lifting are indeed heavy, best football, tennis, ski (+ many other) athletes are not heavy at all.

Then there is chess too...

The point is,  there are many intelligent and inspired ways to compliment women without creating a men/women competition which would  fall apart if taken seriously.


"You (women) always manage to cope with everything in some mysterious way. You reach summits in the most diverse areas of human endeavor,"
"You manage to do everything: both at work and at home and at the same time you remain beautiful, charismatic, charming, the center of gravity for the whole family, uniting it with your love,"
"We, men, must say frankly that it is not always easy for us to be worthy of you,"

- Putin

Biden has yet to learn from his enemy

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 27, 2021 01:28 PM

Fair enough, I should have said “some sports.” I meant the ones that are out of context.

Look, I’m sure there are many fields of work, men OR women are slightly, or even noticably suited better for, in general. I have no problem with this. Yet, there will always be exceptions, individual women who are extra talented, eager, dedicated and competent enough to compete on the same level, if it’s not about brute force. Such speeches are generic stuff to support them, it’s politics, not neurology. If we were to take such things politicians say about “nations” on a literal level, scientifically, nations dont even exist.

Btw, I’m not so sure about chess, I checked ELO scores after watching Queen’s Gambit, (lovely mini-series btw) and yes, right now, all top players are men but this has historical context, most record holders are from times when women werent taken seriously and couldnt exist anway. And they are closing in, the gap is slowly narrowing down. So, I’m not sure if 50 years from now, ELO scores would still give the same results. Such things have usually more than one parameter.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 27, 2021 02:20 PM

@Forfy

I mean, when you compare the 1970’s top players, who are all men, the top 10 is between 2785 - 2635, where as today, woman with best elo score is 2658.

Also, I cant find the link at the moment for comparison of women elo scores decade by decade, but they rise up different than men elo scores decade by decade. For instance, in the 1920’s you have Vera Menchik as top woman player and she’s only 2582, where as Capablanca was 2725.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 27, 2021 03:50 PM

Well, cant you just search for it yourself? Look for elo scores for women, decade by decade, compare their rise of elo scores of men, decade by decade.

I will be on the road on the 29th, so I’m kind of busy putting the house in order.
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 27, 2021 09:09 PM

Can you elaborate that? Applicable in what way? For instance, when we look at ELO scores, we cant deny that Russians dominate, so unless we are to conclude that “Russians are born for chess,” there must be social parameters to explain why they are better.
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Ghost
Ghost


Legendary Hero
Therefore I am
posted March 27, 2021 09:25 PM

In the Soviet time their school has chess hour. Today I don't know.

Men are better than women? Remember chess players are little, men are majority. Example of the best Deaf chess player from Italy, his elo 2400-2500. Deaf people are 80 million in the world. Minor rarely became legendary.

Another what? If you've 3000 elo, you won the game by tube, your elo grows a very slowly. If losing the game, it take much elo off. How your elo increase fastly? Go to against chess engine. Today chess Stockfish 12 computer is 3574 elo.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 27, 2021 11:27 PM

Not to be anachronical, sure, I dont even get that part when you explain it, it is how I evaluate things to begin with. The question was the one Ghost answered.  Kind of. You dont have to be “politically correct” I dont care for it, I really think the answer is that simple. It’s true that I prefer a world where women play chess as good as men, but I dont care for it enough to twist facts. I mean, if there was some enormous gap, we could go by “neourological differences” but there isnt.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted March 28, 2021 12:04 AM

OhforfSake said:
The best players are men, because the majority of players are men. I really think it is that simple.


That's oversimplified, you have to go beyond and answer why those enjoying chess are majorly men. Then why some of those men are capable to put everything in their life into parenthesis except chess, in  order to become gran champions.

The answer is given by Polgar herself: "Chess is my profession and of course I hope to improve. But I'm not going to give up everything to become world champion; I have my life."

artu said:
It’s true that I prefer a world where women play chess as good as men


And why that? What is so great into being good at chess as "a man"?

I really don't get why some want men and women to be interchangeable. They are so different, that's why they need each other.                                                                                                      
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 28, 2021 12:50 AM

It’s not about being “interchangable.” It’s about being able to communicate. Chess, in this instance, is different than soccer, or different than how a woman may relate to a violin player with a feminine touch. It’s absolutely abstract, what is called “the queen” in English, is called “the vizier” in Turkish. The game is the game nevertheless.

I love to be able to tell a woman my dreams and I love the idea that she gets it no matter what the pieces are called. I like the idea that we are different, but not that different after all. I fall in love with peers, not cows.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted March 28, 2021 10:59 AM

artu said:
I love to be able to tell a woman my dreams and I love the idea that she gets it no matter what the pieces are called. [...]I fall in love with peers, not cows.


Or maybe you should tone down a bit that ego, learn to listen women's dreams then stop calling them cows if they don't meet the standards You wish for them.

Men and women have very different centers of interest (look at Youtube for example, the biggest platform allowing everyone to become a creator/entrepreneur and make money while sharing knowledge).
Through social experiments you can force them to become interchangeable and pretend they share same interests, but after a while they will get back to natural preferences no matter what. Why do you think we came to force gender quotas, as today? Because even when everyone had the opportunity to compete in any field - no matter the gender, the results didn't differ so much from before. Most women didn't find so fascinating to compete and strive for CEO, politics, finance, engineering and areas of same ilk. Or chess, for instance.

You can not become a genius in a field which does not interest you at highest degree. You will have exceptions - sure, but the overall design does not change.                    
                                                                   

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 28, 2021 04:41 PM
Edited by artu at 22:44, 28 Mar 2021.

@Sal

How is that even closely relevant to what I emphasized? I’m not forcing women to be interested in chess. Or calling them cows for not being interested. They already are and they already score great. There is not a gap between them and men that indicates difference on ability level when it comes to chess. Even one genius can change the scales. (Although, at some point there, I used chess also as a metaphor obviously, for anything that men and women would enjoy really sharing together and that the point is not being interchangable but relevant to each other’s universe. My girlfriends were always also my friends, we could always talk for hours.)

And Forfy, to clarify, Sal is going with Jordan Peterson’s argument that getting to the top requires a certain level of dedication, an unhealthy dedication even, a kind of “workaholicness” that only men are capable of. But even Peterson himself, when using that argument, doesnt apply it to each field. (For instance, he says women dominate medicine.) It could be a relative factor when it comes to dog-eat-dog corporate world (could be, maybe, but then again there are female politicians who get to the top and that’s the worst case of dog-eat-dog environment), but I dont think it applies to things like art, chess or even science where one’s individual passion and joy is never distinctive from their dedication. One thing significantly different may be that kids will always be more important for the mothers than to fathers, maternal instinct is obviously stronger. But in today’s world, there are many ways to compartmentalize that and some women dont even prefer to have children anyway.

So, to summarize, I dont rule out chess as something that men and women can be equally capable of and I would not twist the facts for it but I also prefer a world where it isnt, not because men and women should be interchangable but because they can both be great at many things and that is a good thing, it means we can share more.
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