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| Thread: WHY PIONEER NEUROSURGEON WILDER PENFIELD SAID THE MIND IS MORE THAN THE BRAIN |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted June 01, 2021 09:38 PM |
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fred79 said:
buk buk buk buKOCK!
buk buk.
buk buk buk.
buKOCK!
My thoughts exactly, I want to subscribe to your newsletter.
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Gandalf196
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
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posted June 01, 2021 09:50 PM |
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artu said:
No, this is something else, not the actual debate.
No. This is part of the debate; experimental proof of "free won't"
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 01, 2021 10:58 PM |
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Edited by artu at 23:03, 01 Jun 2021.
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That one is about reflexes. I’m not talking about reflexes but decisions. They are scanned before you make them. And even if this wasnt so, still doesnt make intentional behaviour a black and white issue, it’s not like there are fully automated species and then suddenly species with an absolute will. It is still gradual and humans are not unique in this regard. So besides all the other facts and your exposed chicken fallacy that you’re trying to dodge and ignore, it’s starting to become really embarassing for you to pretend as if you actually have a point because of a study about muscle control (which doesnt equal to free will btw). And free will wouldnt prove magical souls either, even if it does exist, that would only mean that our intellect gradually evolved to the capacity of free will. You’d still react to a truth serum or magic mushrooms, is it your metaphysical soul that reacts to them.
Maybe I should start cackling like a chicken too, so that it becomes easier for you to understand.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 02, 2021 03:32 AM |
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buk?
buk buk?
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 02, 2021 08:42 AM |
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after reading the link in the op and then all the replies, i guess you guys forgot how intricate and scarcely understood the brain really is. stimulating the brain with hand-held instruments and electricity barely scratches the surface on such an intricate organ, no? you might as well be using a soup spoon to field-dress a carcass. if we are able to retain memory and personal characteristics on a cellular level despite cells replacing themselves, then it is laughable to think what these neuroscientists were doing with essentially cave-man tools, could produce more intricate results to get a more in-depth grasp of what they were studying.
that said, those results, or any other arguments, can not firmly deny that no spiritual realm exists. what you might think of as primitive thinking, could just as easily be a lack of the correct tools or understanding, to reach an even more intricate level of existence and reality.
to put it short; you're not neurosurgeons, nor do you have the experience or knowledge(because something cannot be validated or invalidated without the right tools and understanding) to deny what they have found to back up their claims, based on the physical world that forever limits us to its understanding of the boundaries and the unknowable truths that are yet beyond our reach.
to put it even shorter, possibilities are endless. just because they cannot be proven or disproven NOW in our physical universe/plane with the tools we have currently at our disposal, does not negate them entirely.
besides, faith in anything is only a starting point. it was faith that built our society from the ground up. would you so eschew faith?
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 02, 2021 12:11 PM |
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1- It doesnt work like that, you cant say “how do you know it DOESNT exist,’” burden of proof is on the claimer, not the other way around.
2- Even if something isnt proven and just a hypothetical possibility, you still have the notion of probability. It is one thing to say, “maybe multiverses exist,” another thing to say “maybe dragons exist.” One claim is rational, the other is magical. In today’s world, we have a solid understanding about the basics of how consciousness gradually evolved, how it reacts to chemical interference, which part of the brain is responsible for memory, which part for language, which hormones trigger what feeling… What is “a soul” without all that? Why are you considered dead, when you are brain-dead for instance? It is extremely improbable (like jumping from a plane and surviving improbable) that through the gradual evolution of consciousness, at some point, magical daddy in the sky inserted souls to humans. It was one thing to believe in souls when humans thought they were created specially and the animal kingdom and plants were created FOR us, when those kind of genesis stories made sense. It’s comepletely different to claim it when you know you are part of that animal kingdom.
3- Yes, none of us are neorosurgeons but these are not expert level claims, they are not even grounded claims. They are super-natural claims and you dont need to be a neurosurgeon to know they are pseudoscientific.
4- Saying all that, I’d still have relatively more respect to someone who says “this is my personal, subjective faith, it is my religion. I believe in souls despite the lack of evidence.” But bringing up Discovery Institute crap, Intelligent Designers and all that fraud, faith disguised as science… That is the worst. It is not only unreal, it is dishonest, it is fraud. And it is a problem in countries where religion and puritanism try to get its claws in education. (Countries like yours and mine, Nordics or Japan etc, dont have “Discovery Institutes” and even if they do, they are so marginal, we never even heard of them.)
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 02, 2021 04:21 PM |
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Gandalf196
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
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posted June 03, 2021 02:12 AM |
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 03, 2021 03:56 AM |
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Edited by artu at 16:44, 03 Jun 2021.
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I love this cartoonist but this was not my argument and you cant even grasp that.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 03, 2021 04:57 AM |
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artu said:
I love this cartoonist but you are stupid.
that's not very nice, artu.
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Kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted June 03, 2021 11:59 AM |
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that seemed to have hit a nerve.
@Gandalf:
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Gandalf196
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
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posted June 03, 2021 04:28 PM |
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artu said:
I love this cartoonist but you are stupid.
I am a dumb piece of snow, for sure, but my stupid ideas seem to ruffle a lot of feathers anyway. Also, don't forget to thank the unbiased moderation for your free pass at insulting 
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted June 03, 2021 04:39 PM |
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Gandalf is a mapmaker. Maybe HotA MP too, when same name. If no both. Gandalf becomes Gendulf. 
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 03, 2021 04:42 PM |
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Nope, it didnt hit a nerve. I’m just bored with his BS after BS. I never said souls are improbable only because they are not empirical to begin with. And “meaningful statements” dont have to be corresponding to external reality, I never said that either.
He was the one claiming souls are scientificly proven, linking pseudoscience. Now that his cover is blown, he returns to “hah, it’s not all about science.” It’s just embarassing.
@Gandalf
You are the one trying to provoke me into insulting you with such irrelevant spam and distortion though, arent you. (But I’ll still edit it, since I already know how you like to play the victim.)
Sorry but no feathers, you are bringing up stuff that had been refuted a zillion times. DI links wont tell you that.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Gandalf196
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
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posted June 03, 2021 05:22 PM |
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artu said:
Nope, it didnt hit a nerve. I’m just bored with his BS after BS. I never said souls are improbable only because they are not empirical to begin with. And “meaningful statements” dont have to be corresponding to external reality, I never said that either.
Sorry but no feathers, you are bringing up stuff that had been refuted a zillion times. DI links wont tell you that.
You mean the hard problem of consciousness has been solved? If that is the case, could you give us a glimpse of the solution?
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted June 03, 2021 06:06 PM |
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No, I mean explaining consciousness by super-natural phenomenon and deus ex machina is and have been a moot point for a very, very long time. It’s like I’m telling you that people dont explain things by four basic elements of water, earth, fire, air and you’re trying to be sarcastic by replying “oh, so we know everything about sub-atomic particles.”
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Gandalf196
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
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posted June 03, 2021 06:15 PM |
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Supernatural is an oxymoron, you should know that. Nobody is arguing for woo-woo, I want the real answer as much as you do, but I refuse to buy into materialism, because it fails to answer a plethora of things, as many doctors and philosphers have stated.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 03, 2021 06:56 PM |
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You have to say goodbye to the idea of answering all questions and solving all problems. The more questions we CAN answer, the more new ones and problems arise.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 03, 2021 07:24 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
You have to say goodbye to the idea of answering all questions and solving all problems. The more questions we CAN answer, the more new ones and problems arise.
so nothing's ever been answered? i find that hard to believe.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted June 03, 2021 07:40 PM |
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@Gandalf
Handicap philosophy asked do I believe in Santa Claus? Yes. Philosophy doesn't granted me. Now we found X-mas from Turkey, etc Philosophy fixed the question again. Why a handicap? Using reason for robot. Highed education has failed by Santa Claus. Materialism could say Finnish invention isn't Santa Claus but from ancient world. And your philosophy is Thomas Aquinas. I got a rare philosophic person and class. I don't remember who.
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