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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: A HoM&M Mini-Game, Creature Analysis and Creature Charts
Thread: A HoM&M Mini-Game, Creature Analysis and Creature Charts This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV
baronus
baronus


Promising
Legendary Hero
posted June 23, 2022 07:00 AM
Edited by baronus at 07:03, 23 Jun 2022.

baronus

Yes! Using you tool we can fast find correct number of ballance when all unit is = other unit. So we can have Real unit power!
Its only way to find it because price is not Real value of power. We need test all vs all because if 1200 peasants Beata 50 nagasband 50 nagas Beata 1 azure dragon it doesnt mean that 1200 peasants beats 1 asure dragon. So we need only the same wins/defeats number. Using alghoritm its simple! And you can add variuos stats eg. SoD orc HoTa orc. SoD is a base...

Its never 1 vs 1 so I suposse 2 months growth eg 16 angels. Its real gameplay number in middle game.

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Wub
Wub


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted June 24, 2022 11:20 PM
Edited by Wub at 17:43, 25 Jun 2022.

Amazing, LouWeed! My life is so busy these days that staring at HoM&M3 charts (and writing the occasional post) has become perhaps my main pastime activity, so thanks for giving me some quality leisure time in idle moments .

I think the chart gets by far the most fights right. As you said, you haven’t done kiting yet, which I believe you mean to be synonymous to maneuvering, so a few thoughts on that (which would probably need to be double-checked still):

• As for creatures with No-Retaliation, I think if they have Speed 9 or higher they can indefinitely hit-and-run all human-controlled Speed 4 creatures (as long as positive Morale is not triggered). Against Speed 3 creatures I think they need to have only Speed 6. Against human-controlled Speed 5 creatures indefinite hit-and-run is only possible if the No-Retaliation creature has positive Morale and the Speed 5 creature has not, because then evading until Morale is triggered becomes an option.

• As for Ranged creatures, I would need to look into it more, but probably the exact same holds, except that they need longer than every other turn to get a shot in. Also, Medusa Queens cannot outrun Speed 3 creatures because of their large creature size.

• In some cases, Ranged creatures can get a free shot in every other turn by moving away when blocked by a melee creature even if the Speed difference is smallish to medium. Think Titans versus Chaos Hydras. But in some cases it may occur even if the Speed difference is only 2.

• If I understand correctly, then especially in Horn of the Abyss Ranged creatures without Melee penalty should sometimes engage Ranged creatures with Melee penalty in melee combat. This allows Medusa Queens to take down Master Gremlins, for example (Round 1 Move, Round 2 Attack-Move).

• Regular Melee creatures that can outrun their opponent should Wait-Attack-Move rather than Wait-Attack-Attack. Think Unicorns versus Peasants. That way they maximize their first strikes.

Talking about Unicorns versus Peasants, it strikes me that there are many battles in the chart with as outcome 1.00. But when there is a chance of Morale bonuses and Specialties such as Blinding triggering, you would expect that at least sometimes the weaker stack still wins. Perhaps the number of simulations is too low to capture anomalies.

It would also be good to explicate the rules in the Explanation tab. I personally have no problems with draws due to stand-offs or infinite evading (could even be different for HotA than SoD, given the 100-turn rules) but if you want to force decisive outcomes it would be good to note down the exact decision rule. I do think that slow melee creatures do not deserve a win if they start by Defending, because then their faster opponent could do the same.

Baronus, as for your idea, two months may be quite a long time for a game, but sure, we could in theory take, say, 3 weeks’ worth of Sprites and test how large all other creature stacks would have to be for the Sprites (and all other creatures) to win only 50% of all match-ups. The Mini-Game would then center more around Growth instead of Cost.

In either case, as my first post explains, the Creature Strength charts are not meant to capture Speed and Creature Specialties, as their value is too situational. This allows for calculation of Stack Strength, which is meant merely as preliminary input for, say, the Mini-Game.
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baronus
baronus


Promising
Legendary Hero
posted June 25, 2022 06:20 AM

Since skills are extremely different, we have to accept additional conditions. 4 months of play is rather average. You won't finish the bigger map in 6 weeks. So 2 months is an average gain. It should also be assumed that the hero has 10 attack 10 defense. Units should also be in 3 groups.

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LouWeed
LouWeed


Adventuring Hero
posted June 28, 2022 03:12 AM

All good points wub, those all sound like good test cases once I get the two-dimensional battlefield & kiting working.

With the kiting logic, seems there's two sides to it. You've got your faster creature, and generally that part is simple, they just want to stay as far as possible away from the slower creature. But the slower creature (assuming they can't actually reach the enemy) does not necessarily want to get as close as possible to the faster creature - if the faster creature is in a corner for instance, then the smarter move is for the slower creature to move just far enough that they can reach them on their next turn, otherwise the faster enemy may be able to escape on their turn.

So my working logic at the moment for slower creatures - in the case where they cannot reach an enemy creature that is faster than them - is to move to the cell that maximises the number of cells that both creatures can reach on their next turn. Obviously this is the ideal strategy when the faster creature has no cell it can move to that the slower creature can't reach, and is probably close enough to optimal in other cases too.

baronus said:
Since skills are extremely different, we have to accept additional conditions. 4 months of play is rather average. You won't finish the bigger map in 6 weeks. So 2 months is an average gain. It should also be assumed that the hero has 10 attack 10 defense. Units should also be in 3 groups.


Script can already do attack & defense, and growth to x number of weeks with/without castle and hoard buildings - but splitting the stacks is probably not going to be doable

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baronus
baronus


Promising
Legendary Hero
posted June 28, 2022 02:11 PM

We need number of unit when each has the same wins/loses number! Not 4 weeks growth! Growth tells us nothing! I only told it not to have 2 angels in test. Yes stacks are to hard to simulate so for dragons hydras cerberi and other area units it must be corrected upper.

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LouWeed
LouWeed


Adventuring Hero
posted June 29, 2022 05:57 AM

So the idea will be to take, say 2 months' (or whatever) worth of sprites, and then take each other creature in turn, starting with 2 months worth, comparing them, and then increasing the number until a balance is found. The number of sprites used will be static. Probably some sort of binary search to speed things up. Shouldn't be too much trouble, depending how efficient it ends up being

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baronus
baronus


Promising
Legendary Hero
posted June 29, 2022 08:52 AM
Edited by baronus at 09:12, 29 Jun 2022.

baronus

2 months growth of angels 16 and how many each units is needed to have remis.
For area units we can make another. Eg hydras real test between 7 lvl units 3 stacks vs hydras. And average result as real hydras power. The same magic elementals but lvl 6.

Or another way to make it faster. We can make hydras with no area attack eg. giving hydras stats like chaos hydras in crtrairs and removing area attack. How many hydras vs chaos hydras we need to have remis. In this way we can rate hydras ability. 3 stacks vs 3 stacks.

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Haloneya
Haloneya

Tavern Dweller
posted July 05, 2022 07:20 PM

yes

bump
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LouWeed
LouWeed


Adventuring Hero
posted July 06, 2022 05:28 AM
Edited by LouWeed at 01:36, 07 Jul 2022.

Sorry yeah the kiting is not working 100% yet

I've added more info to the explanation of the spreadsheet
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dJx321tUnFox8FoC8PksRTuduGC0QaMAsQUwFDCrrzg/edit#gid=1477466469

Examples of kiting working:

Sharpshooter vs Dendroid Soldier:
https://pastebin.com/vNMHW93R

Titan vs 2 Chaos Hydras:
https://pastebin.com/jm86xM7d

3 Marksmen vs Dendroid Guard:
https://pastebin.com/0W7fERtc

Still to do:
-Creatures that occupy 2 hexes
-Melee creatures employing kiting tactics

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baronus
baronus


Promising
Legendary Hero
posted July 06, 2022 06:25 AM

Your work as I see is better and better! Very good! Ballance of units is more important question all strategii games. Do your work help us to find Real power of each creature.

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