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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: The fate of Learning, Eagle Eye and First Aid
Thread: The fate of Learning, Eagle Eye and First Aid This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted June 22, 2022 08:24 AM

Poll Question:
The fate of Learning, Eagle Eye and First Aid

What do you think should be done about these skills in HotA or your other favorite mod?

Responses:
Leave them as they are
Improve them
Remove them
I don't know/care
 View Results!

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted June 22, 2022 09:21 AM

Learning can be improved somewhat by upping the percentages, and First Aid can possibly be changed to make it useful, but I really can't see a way that Eagle Eye can be made the slightest bit useful.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted June 22, 2022 09:32 AM

You can apply HomM5 "learning" (+ main attribute every X levels). That makes it crazy good in H5, so with some tweaking it could be a top tier skill if that's what you're after.

First aid could be probably easily fixed by allowing the tent to resurrect troops. Tent specialist would be sought after on certain maps.

Eagle Eye... ehh, remove it. I have no idea how to make it work, and silly ideas break the immersion. Just disable it and be done with it.
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BTB
BTB


Famous Hero
Moist & Creamy
posted June 22, 2022 09:48 AM

Learning - just up the percentages

First Aid - buffs the health of your units and allows the tent to remove statuses

Eagle Eye - garbage

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BrandochDaha
BrandochDaha

Tavern Dweller
posted June 22, 2022 11:15 AM

In my opinion, the Advanced Classed Mod buffed these skills very elegantly. Getting additional attribute point via Learning is cool, dealing damage before battle with Eagle Eye is fun, resurrecting troops after combat with First Aid helps with tougher fights in the beginning of the game.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted June 22, 2022 12:52 PM

BTB said:
First Aid - buffs the health of your units and allows the tent to remove statuses
The tent is the primary weakness of the skill. With just 75 hp and no armour, it goes down ridiculously easy.

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shev441
shev441


Adventuring Hero
posted June 22, 2022 02:03 PM

Eagle eye is too weak to be seperate skill in my opinion, even after some improvements.  They should marge it with schoolar. It works almost the same:
-schoolar  allows to learn spells between 2 allied heros
-eagle eye allows to learn spells between 2 enemy heroes

There is no point in having in 2 different skills that so more of less the same. Eagle eye used to be part of H3 for 20 years so I would like not to totaly get rid of it. It could work nice as element of schoolar skill.
Also schoolar on its own is not that amazing, so it could be nice bonus. Maybe during game you would learn 1-2 spells from enemy and you could teach this spell with your other heroes immidietly (now you need 1 hero with eagle eye and second with schoolar to do it - so basicly it never happens).

Emply space after eagle eye should be replaced with new secondary skill, one that is usefull.

First Aid or Learning I guess could work after some buffs. Heroes V made them more usefull , maybe Hota could copy it a bit.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted June 22, 2022 06:55 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 19:05, 22 Jun 2022.

Learning:
If it were up to me it would give more primary skills as in H5, otherwise bufing the % could be fine for multiplayer (not campaign because you hit level cap anyways).

Eagle Eye:
As I said before, it could be buffed to:

Basic - All lvl 1-3 spells, 70%
Advanced - All lvl 1-4 spells, 80%
Expert - All level 5 spells, 90%

Eagle Eye artifacts should work even if you don't have Eagle Eye (same with archery artifacts) and have an assembled artifact that gives 100% chance to learn all spells.
Eagle Eye should work for creature spells, this was modded in AFAIK before so not impossible.

All eagle eye specialists should still be replaced with other heroes by default.

First Aid:
After much consideration it would be OK if it just allowed to revive creatures and buff tent HP.

Basic: Current buff + tent can revive and +25 tent HP per hero level
Advanced: Current buff + tent can revive and +50 tent HP per hero level
Expert: Current buff + tent can revivive and +75 tent HP per hero level.

This is presumably simple, not confusing at all (unlike some wog-style features) and easy enough to program.

And I would add:
Scouting:
Just making scouting 1/3/5 as in HotA is cringe, I would instead make scouting still 1/2/3 sight and give +5%/+10%/+15% gold in treasure, much like learning does give more XP from chests.
There is no Fog of War in H3 everyting gets perma revealed, thus extra sight is not as valuable.

Navigation:
Currently only useful if there is LOTS of water, as small water is not enough to make te huge movement bonus come into play. So, small water maps and maps with "lakes" still make Navigation useless even if they have ships. I would instead make it +20/40/60% water movement, but reduces movement cost penalty to embark/disembark by 25/50/75% percent. This way it is useful even with small quantities of water, by allowing you to move right after embarking/disembarking (and not only with the hat, though that waives 100%, so still useful).

Sorcery:
The plus % isn't significant enough and favors damage only. I would say either find a way to make this bonus apply to the equation of all/many spell effects (easiest are healing and resurrection as they are also HP based), and/or make blesses and curses last 5/10/15% more turns (rounded up) as well.
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purerogue
purerogue


Known Hero
posted June 22, 2022 07:09 PM

The fact that EE, FA, and Learn don't work is symptom rather than cause - that HeroesIII is such a simplistic game, there are only so many bells and whistles before it self-canabalizes and leads to stupid arguments like this.
But it's success is due to simplicity.. greener pastures fellas

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fanofheroes
fanofheroes


Famous Hero
posted June 22, 2022 09:34 PM

There's a simple way to make eagle eye worth while:

Add many more spells.  Use the new spell plug-in.  This way a few towns will not be enough to collect all the best major spells, and it'll force heroes to try and get spells from other heroes.  Perhaps if there are new magic shrines that only teach spells outside the mage guilds in towns, or new spells exclusive to random spell scrolls on the map.  This will make getting new spells from heroes who have Eagle Eye worth while.  Combine that with scholar and you could have a hero learn spells and pass it to others permanently.  

But without more spells added to the lot, EE is pretty useless.

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purerogue
purerogue


Known Hero
posted June 22, 2022 10:10 PM
Edited by purerogue at 22:14, 22 Jun 2022.

But heroes is a one-hero game, any secondary-hero skills like scouting and scholar require debuffing of the primary hero relevance.. might as well start with a new game.

add: which is why, unironically, a lot of new games/projects die, as the person who came up with the idea realize the limitation of their previous choices, and say just f it.. I'm not finishing it

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted June 22, 2022 11:43 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 00:03, 23 Jun 2022.

fanofheroes said:
There's a simple way to make eagle eye worth while:

Add many more spells.  Use the new spell plug-in.  This way a few towns will not be enough to collect all the best major spells, and it'll force heroes to try and get spells from other heroes.  Perhaps if there are new magic shrines that only teach spells outside the mage guilds in towns, or new spells exclusive to random spell scrolls on the map.  This will make getting new spells from heroes who have Eagle Eye worth while.  Combine that with scholar and you could have a hero learn spells and pass it to others permanently.  

But without more spells added to the lot, EE is pretty useless.


Actually HotA reduced the relevance of eagle eye by introducing spell research. So if you want to keep it "relevant" disabling that will be the first step.

Quote:
But heroes is a one-hero game, any secondary-hero skills like scouting and scholar require debuffing of the primary hero relevance.. might as well start with a new game.


Absurd. So long those skills stay designed for secondary heroes, there is no "reduction of primary hero relevance". My proposal for scouting didn't include *anything* that makes the secondary hero better in combat, which is what you want your main hero for.

The advantage of the first hero is that, that it comes first so it will be more leveled and have the best artifacts and opportunities. In H3 you can only fight with one hero at once so *nothing* that doesn't change that design choice will change the relevance of primary hero. It's essencially baked in into the game. Not even WoG with their million changes (including to secondary skills) and game modes changed the supremacy of single hero combat play

Plus, nobody spoke of reforming scholar here. Definitely it is not learning-league bad. If anything it just needs to be able to transmit level 5 spells to be complete.
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purerogue
purerogue


Known Hero
posted June 23, 2022 12:02 AM

Learning is what I call a 'null' skill - it requires canabalization and needs a high% to be worthwhile -thus it subtracts more than adds

EE is a minor skill on a minor skill = doubly irrelevant

Scouting is 'cool' but is totally offsourceable thus would make a 20skill selection not 8


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Ancientdruids
Ancientdruids


Known Hero
(Andruids for short)
posted June 23, 2022 01:22 AM
Edited by Ancientdruids at 03:21, 23 Jun 2022.

How about that for Eagle Eye's boost:

When you don't have a magic school skill that your opponent does, you copy their skill level.

So, with the Basic Eagle Eye, if your opponent has Basic or greater Air/Fire/Water/Earth Magic skill, your hero can cast spells with Basic proficiency of that magic school.

With Advanced Eagle Eye, if your opponent has Advanced or Expert skill, your hero can cast spells of that magic school with Advanced proficiency.

And with Expert Eagle Eye, if your opponent has Expert magic skill, your hero can cast spells of that school with Expert proficiency.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted June 23, 2022 03:34 AM

That's a creative idea but I see a few problems with it:

1- It undercuts the actual skills, such as the more magic you hve, the less useful EE becomes. With all four magics that version o EE would be even more useless than it is now.

2- It incentivizes your opponent to not have such skills if he doesn't want you to have them too.

3- With most matches being earth magic/air aith both heroes having either one or both of these magics and rarely water or fire, it will still be quite less useful without a general magic school rebalance.

I propose instead that EE is the *only* way to learn creature spells.

Spells and quasi spells included could be such as:
Zombie disease, Wyvern Monarch poison, Stone-turning (basilisk and medusa), paralysis (Scorpicore), Corrosion (Rust Dragon), Death Gaze (Gorgon), Binding (Dendriod), Resistance Aura (Unicorn), and Fear (Azure Dragon).
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fanofheroes
fanofheroes


Famous Hero
posted June 23, 2022 03:52 AM
Edited by fanofheroes at 03:54, 23 Jun 2022.

Ancientdruids said:
How about that for Eagle Eye's boost:

When you don't have a magic school skill that your opponent does, you copy their skill level.

So, with the Basic Eagle Eye, if your opponent has Basic or greater Air/Fire/Water/Earth Magic skill, your hero can cast spells with Basic proficiency of that magic school.

With Advanced Eagle Eye, if your opponent has Advanced or Expert skill, your hero can cast spells of that magic school with Advanced proficiency.

And with Expert Eagle Eye, if your opponent has Expert magic skill, your hero can cast spells of that school with Expert proficiency.



maybe?

Basic - reduces 1 enemy magic (air/earth/water/fire) level by 1  (exp -> adv or adv -> basic)
Advanced - reduces 1 enemy magic level by 2
Expert - reduces 2 enemy magic level by 2

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Ancientdruids
Ancientdruids


Known Hero
(Andruids for short)
posted June 23, 2022 04:30 AM
Edited by Ancientdruids at 04:38, 23 Jun 2022.

NimoStar said:

1- It undercuts the actual skills, such as the more magic you hve, the less useful EE becomes. With all four magics that version o EE would be even more useless than it is now.

It wouldn't overwrite the Eagle Eye's effect, but give it an additional utility, so with some Magic Skills it wouldn't be more useless, just as useless as it is now.
NimoStar said:

2- It incentivizes your opponent to not have such skills if he doesn't want you to have them too. (...)
3- With most matches being earth magic/air aith both heroes having either one or both of these magics and rarely water or fire, it will still be quite less useful without a general magic school rebalance.

That's the point of this boost, and quite a powerful one in theory, if put to work. If you intend to fight other heroes with developed magic skills, you have to invest in but one skill to have an access to their magic levels (plus you still get to snatch their spells). But this approach isn't without an obvious drawback, because you don't have any advantage when you fight neutral creatures on the adventure map.

It's doable in VCMI btw, just tried it.

fanofheroes said:

Basic - reduces 1 enemy magic


Doesn't sound like something that Eagle Eye should be doing.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted June 23, 2022 04:43 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 09:34, 23 Jun 2022.

Quote:
It wouldn't overwrite the Eagle Eye's effect, but give it an additional utility, so with some Magic Skills it wouldn't be more useless, just as useless as it is now.


I am hesitant to have a skill do two wildly different things in the first place, sounds like a way to wogify the game.

Quote:
But this approach isn't without an obvious drawback, because you don't have any advantage when you fight neutral creatures on the adventure map.



Which is part of why I still prefer the "learn from creatures" approach. Both the spells you learn and the creatures you fight would help you.

Your proposal disincentivizes less used magics more BTW, since it's likely your opponent with EE will already have Earth or Wind for his own purposes. So by taking it yourself you don't make him stronger. But if you take Water or Fire which he probably won't have, it does make him stronger.

Reducing/disencouraging enemy's skills in general is something boring BTW... this is why I also oppose the "reduce enemy magic level". Who wants a final fight where everyone has weaker magic? And this is also against the boring "interference". On the contrary Resistance doesn't make opponents spells weaker and also has a nifty graphic effect that shows when it works, thus increasing fun
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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted June 23, 2022 08:24 AM

Thanks for your answers and votes guys, very interesting to read.
I'm glad most of you agree that the skills need to be improved. (and Eagle Eye possibly removed.)

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted June 23, 2022 11:10 AM
Edited by bloodsucker at 11:14, 23 Jun 2022.

I voted for disable them, cause I would prefer to have a lot less dead/lesser skills (or more SS slots and Memory Master object)
That said, Learning giving primary skills solves the problem, one just needs to balance how strong should be each buff. EE wouldn't be so nefarious, if you automatically unlearned the skill after getting all available spells.
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