Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info mods forum | HOMM4: info CTG forum | HOMM5: info mods forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Worst Heroes 3 necklace artifacts
Thread: Worst Heroes 3 necklace artifacts This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Ghost
Ghost


Legendary Hero
Therefore I am
posted August 31, 2022 02:52 PM

Poll Question:
Worst Heroes 3 necklace artifacts

I've found vacant what we can using a thread. Welcome again! Ok I chose spell immune artifacts specifically. So I don't reject good or best artifacts, thus psychologist matter and this are 8 artifacts Yes that are H3C, because HotA or WoG are too good. Ok my opinion those artifact costs are wrong, so trust yourself.
____________
Fight MWMs - stand teach

Responses:
Pendant of Dispassion
Pendant of Free Will
Pendant of Life
Pendant of Death
Pendant of Total Recall
Pendant of Holiness
Pendant of Second Sight
Pendant of Negativity
Your comment!
 View Results!

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted August 31, 2022 03:21 PM

Well if playing against AI, it can't cast Forgetfulness or Berserk, so those would probably be the worst.

Immunity to Destroy Undead is also pretty lame, unless you are Necro and don't have a better artifact.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
heymlich
heymlich


Known Hero
posted August 31, 2022 05:38 PM

If I have them, I turn them in at the altar, even if that means to leave the neck slot empty. So there is no point in ranking them, they are all exactly the same: 1000 xp.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted September 01, 2022 03:27 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 03:29, 01 Sep 2022.

Pendant of Death is objectively the worse

You need an army of undead PLUS the enemy needs to have Destroy Undead and the proclivity to use it (which isn't guaranteed as the spell isn't very good anyways)

So 9 times out of 10 this artifact will do nothing.

But practically all "immune to X" are pretty terrible. I shudder to think what were the designers thinking.

Pendant of Free Will is particularly egregious, as hypnotize is basically unusable, even normally. And not even hota buffed it.

At least H4 got rid of this terrible type of artifact.
____________
Never changing = never improving

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
heymlich
heymlich


Known Hero
posted September 01, 2022 11:29 AM

NimoStar said:

hypnotize is basically unusable, even normally.


That's a good thing, actually. I don't see, how this spell can be implemented properly. It's either useless (H3) or totally broken (H4)


 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted September 01, 2022 11:36 AM

heymlich said:
NimoStar said:

hypnotize is basically unusable, even normally.


That's a good thing, actually. I don't see, how this spell can be implemented properly. It's either useless (H3) or totally broken (H4)



If it can be either completely useless or totally broken only thing needed is a middle ground : )

Like, H4 hypnotize works three rounds on any troop and it's clearly too much.

I think one round but with *much* higher Spell Power scaling than the H3 one would be OK.

After all, there is Expert Berserk in H3 and that one *is* clearly broken, stronger Hypno woudn't hurt.
____________
Never changing = never improving

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 01, 2022 12:27 PM

I tried to buff Hypnotize in HotA, only problem is it will also make Fangarms stronger.
I ended up just making the spell a lot cheaper.
I mostly use it to cast on enchanters, so they can support me instead of the enemy.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
heymlich
heymlich


Known Hero
posted September 01, 2022 01:04 PM

NimoStar said:

If it can be either completely useless or totally broken only thing needed is a middle ground : )


That would be the case, if all games are played under the same conditions. That is not the case.

The H3 Hypnotize can not really be balanced, because it's efficiency depends on stack size. The H4 version will be totally OP on large maps.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Ghost
Ghost


Legendary Hero
Therefore I am
posted September 01, 2022 01:25 PM

Phoenix4ever said:
Well if playing against AI, it can't cast Forgetfulness or Berserk, so those would probably be the worst.

Immunity to Destroy Undead is also pretty lame, unless you are Necro and don't have a better artifact.


Yes AI casts Forgetfulness since RoE, if AI has Expert Water and Forgetfulness. An example of my Elite (SoD) map can showing AI casts Forgetfulness, but "random" Secondary skills, if AI takes Water, and you can see AI casts.. AI Fortress vs you Tower.. Then you haven't a Cure and Dispel, thus lesson map.. Yeah Berserk in HotA and WoG option, but no H3C, if JVC thought something, so very wrong.

Destroy Undead? Rarely artifact to Necropolis, but you know that hero with a few of Lord Vampires, Liches or Power Liches and many skeletons go to adventure map in beginning days or weeks, depends on you and resources. Ok human player is attacking against you, and he/she destroys your Vampires and Liches.. What do you do with skeletons? when slow against group or Implosion, Clone, etc

heymlich said:
If I have them, I turn them in at the altar, even if that means to leave the neck slot empty. So there is no point in ranking them, they are all exactly the same: 1000 xp.


Pity! Faerie Dragons, Stronghold, etc

heymlich said:
NimoStar said:

hypnotize is basically unusable, even normally.


That's a good thing, actually. I don't see, how this spell can be implemented properly. It's either useless (H3) or totally broken (H4)


Wrong! WoG MOD can realized.. So H4 would be one round.. Hypnotize isn't bad, but I don't dress with, when other don't know and use..
____________
Fight MWMs - stand teach

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
DarkAtom
DarkAtom


Adventuring Hero
posted September 02, 2022 03:37 AM
Edited by DarkAtom at 04:10, 02 Sep 2022.

Pendant of Free Will is probably objectively the worst, since nobody casts Hypnotize. The other spells all have at least some niche uses, but Hypnotize is probably less useful than Remove Obstacle.

Pendant of Negativity is in my opinion the best in the list, because it makes your Chain Lightning ignore your own troops. Of course, unless I know I am attacking a powerful Solmyr or some other lightning madman, I will happily take a Necklace of Swiftness any day.

Pendant of Second Sight is useful in some situations, but its real use is for mapmakers to annoy players who try to kill strong AI heroes (the same goes for Pendant of Dispassion and Pendant of Total Recall, which are useless against AI, but really annoying and strategy-breaking when the AI has them, I really get frustrated if my mass Forgetfulness gets blocked when the enemy has 3 shooters).

Pendant of Life can be useful in very early game if a Necro scout gets into your territory, but other than that...it's useless.

The rest are all useless, but the Hypnotize one simply can't be beaten imo. I really don't understand the reasoning behind keeping this spell in its same trash form as in Heroes II. Of course, if you go the other way and make it OP like in Heroes IV, that's not very good either, but it's less bad than the version we have now.

It's not the Pendant idea that's bad, but the spells which they grant immunity for. For example, a pendant which makes you immune to Slow would probably be very useful in PvP (not so much against AI).
____________
"If you get scared of doing what's right you might as well lay down and die" - Wulfstan, Heroes of Might and Magic V: Hammers of Fate

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 02, 2022 07:36 AM
Edited by Phoenix4ever at 07:37, 02 Sep 2022.

The pendant artifacts could have been more attractive if they granted immunity to 2-3 spells each.
Pendant of Negativity is decent because it protects against Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning. (Nice to protect Storm Elementals.)
There could also have been a pendant for Death Ripple and Meteor Shower, one for Fireball and Inferno and one for Ice Bolt and Frost Ring.

Badge of Courage in Sod, also protects against all mind spells, which makes protection against Blind, Berserk, Hypnotize or Forgetfulness useless... (HotA fixed that issue.)

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
CountBezuhoff
CountBezuhoff


Supreme Hero
Nihil sub sole novum
posted September 02, 2022 10:12 AM

Easily the Pendant of Free Will. The only realistic use for Hypnotise is casting it on onestacks during a siege to make them stand on the drawbridge.

The Count
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
DarkAtom
DarkAtom


Adventuring Hero
posted September 02, 2022 04:18 PM

CountBezuhoff said:
Easily the Pendant of Free Will. The only realistic use for Hypnotise is casting it on onestacks during a siege to make them stand on the drawbridge.

The Count


I am pretty sure that there are always better alternatives, such as spells to kill the shooters, or Blind/Forgetfulness them and let the enemy come out.

Apparently this guy managed to find a use for Hypnotize, though: https://youtu.be/bjsRL4qDQ6Y
We all know that the AI is stupid, but I guess it is so stupid that it resurrects hypnotized stacks.
____________
"If you get scared of doing what's right you might as well lay down and die" - Wulfstan, Heroes of Might and Magic V: Hammers of Fate

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Ghost
Ghost


Legendary Hero
Therefore I am
posted September 02, 2022 05:02 PM

Ok I can't call stupid AI, even if snow programmed. We don't know how to do monster AI as a chess engine. Limited 3DO, ok.. I always give to AI, I mean I don't play those maps where aren't supported AI. An example you cast Slow, and AI has only Bloodlust I like maps are honest.. My Elite (SoD) you find Hypnotize thing.. and stupid AI, when I teach players, thus AI can't cast better spells
____________
Fight MWMs - stand teach

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
DarkAtom
DarkAtom


Adventuring Hero
posted September 02, 2022 06:40 PM
Edited by DarkAtom at 18:41, 02 Sep 2022.

Ghost said:
We don't know how to do monster AI as a chess engine.


Maybe I can't understand the Ghost language properly, but the best chess engine will crush any human (yes, even Magnus Carlsen).

Of course, Heroes is much more complex than chess, but programming the AI to treat hypnotized creatures like an enemy and make it try to Dispel or kill, rather than cast buffs is not that difficult.
____________
"If you get scared of doing what's right you might as well lay down and die" - Wulfstan, Heroes of Might and Magic V: Hammers of Fate

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Ghost
Ghost


Legendary Hero
Therefore I am
posted September 03, 2022 06:11 AM

Yes I meant today is possible AI, when experts said first chess and go game, if they succeed, they can input AI in all games, because they get a knowledge about AI, but a long time ago chess engines were top level, and they don't try to other games?!? Maybe they buried OR forgot the test/project, so we can't do Heroes 3 without.. When one game is enough, and MODers take/follow model or open source.. So MODers can also develop more stronger AI, what is today in chess engine.. I'm 44yo, I've 1970's chess book told about AI is impossible, their time was formula, what is possible now, and I've 2000's chess material said calculator may be better, where AI beat the Kasparov, but good AI player never come, what today came true by amateurs.. I'm still waiting for PC games.. I had guessed Monopoly, ok no yet..
____________
Fight MWMs - stand teach

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted September 03, 2022 05:49 PM

Quote:
Badge of Courage in Sod, also protects against all mind spells, which makes protection against Blind, Berserk, Hypnotize or Forgetfulness useless... (HotA fixed that issue.)


Actually hota unfixed that solution

Badge of Courage wasn't made this way on accident, there is no way to "accidentally" give a unique power to an artifact

The pendant immunities are still bad, but now there is no good version of the effect to compensate.
____________
Never changing = never improving

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
evildustructor
evildustructor


Known Hero
Pizza Man dominos pizza yummy
posted September 04, 2022 02:15 PM

NimoStar said:
Pendant of Free Will is particularly egregious, as hypnotize is basically unusable, even normally. And not even hota buffed it.

At least H4 got rid of this terrible type of artifact.


so annoying to see you post like you know it all when you clearly dont please be humble and friendly instead of being elitist when you are noob

hypnotize is useable to get first spell casts when opponent has speed priority in combat and useable to block critical spaces in combat its ez mode actually not as bad as people think

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted September 05, 2022 04:45 AM

First off, grammar. Second, you are clearly biased, since *Everyone* other than me already agreed that Hypnotize is one of the weaker spells in the game. Your baseless insults will change nothing.

Hypnotize power depends on stack HP. fastest stacks are higher level creature, thus have higher HP. Plus many of the common high level fast creatures (Gold, Green, Black, Red dragons) are immune. Other not so fast ones are also immune (Giant, Titan - not that you would ever have enough power to hypnotize just a few.)

And, if you are casting hypnotize on a creature in order to go first, it means that you did *Not* go first. So your opponent had first turn of spellcasting in whifch they could have cast anything from just antimagic, to armageddon and retreat with 1 phoenix.
____________
Never changing = never improving

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted September 05, 2022 08:20 PM
Edited by Hourglass at 20:21, 05 Sep 2022.

NimoStar said:
You are clearly biased

*Ahem*

NimoStar said:

Hypnotize power depends on stack HP. fastest stacks are higher level creature, thus have higher HP. Plus many of the common high level fast creatures (Gold, Green, Black, Red dragons) are immune. Other not so fast ones are also immune (Giant, Titan - not that you would ever have enough power to hypnotize just a few.)


It may sound strange, but the spell is indeed used how evildustructor said. You snatch the fastest creature to gain speed priority. When going up against the AI, there just isn't much usage for Hypnotize. This is mainly because of few reasons: The AI doesn't understand the benefit of going first in a round and doesn't know how to split it's troops or don't understand the value of certain unit as a smaller stack. Whereas some high level creatures are indeed immune to Hypnotize, this isn't true for all of them, especially Angels are tend to be present in battles, as there are no penalties when adding them to your roster, and something like 2-3 already counts as stack worth running in the final battle. The human players also use other fast creatures such as Dragon Flies and Silver Pegasi due their handy abilities even in low numbers. So, as there might not be good targets in AI games for Hypnotize, there certainly are some when you're up against a human player.

Usually, it isn't just about snatching the first move. Hypnotize can also open ways to reach the guarded archers or taking of retaliations  while leading you to have the first move next round.

NimoStar said:

And, if you are casting hypnotize on a creature in order to go first, it means that you did *Not* go first. So your opponent had first turn of spellcasting in whifch they could have cast anything from just antimagic, to armageddon and retreat with 1 phoenix.

When you further think about this, you notice that isn't exactly how it goes: the round lasts a while, and the next round's fastest creature can change multiple times even during the round for various reasons. Also, it's not like the players would cast their spells whenever they just have the chance. When thinking about casting Hypnotize as the very first spell during the battle, I don't see how it would be a reasonable play, and I don't think anybody would try to make that argument. IMO Hypnotize is something that can become an option later in the battle.

So, while Hypnotize isn't present among top tier spells, it doesn't mean there wouldn't be some use for it. But about the protection artifact - there is no real use for it. Only few of the listed artifact are really worth using, the neck slot is one of the most contested slots in the game anyway.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: « Prev Thread . . . Next Thread » This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Post New Poll    Post New Topic    Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.1012 seconds