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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: General discussion of Heroes IV features
Thread: General discussion of Heroes IV features This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted January 26, 2023 06:13 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 19:46, 26 Jan 2023.

Quote:
They don't get macroeconomic mechanic, but they get early economy boost with bandits. This fits Chaos agressive game plan.


That is entirely map dependent, I could say that Nature goes well with maps gfull of sawmills because they need way too much wood, but that sort of observation isn't really a balance comment.

As I said before, many maps have little/no treasure that can be gotten with bandits or even with stealth, since:

* Stealth won't work on creature banks,
* Stealth won't work on garrisons,
* Stealth won't work on quests (including with battles),
* Stealth won't work on Triggers,
* Stealth won't work on placed Events,
* Stealth won't work on mine guardians (including abandoned mines and placed guards)
* Stealth won't work on dwelling guardians (including default and placed guards)
* Stealth won't even work on creatures or heroes completely blocking the way.

Macroeconomic bonus is necessary that applies in more than a single narrow case.

Quote:
Town conversion is logically and thematically fits Nobility, Nature and Might also have access to Nobility


Nature doesn't have access to nobility, what are you saying. Only Death, Life and Order of the magic towns have access to nobility (the same strongest ones that got zero votes in the poll for weakest town)... while you deny access to the new features to Nature and Chaos, considered the weakest other than Might (which bears saying, has a very steep cost of 2500 for non-barbarian heroes, while other factions just pay 2000 for secondary or 1500 for two kinds of primaries, not just 1). So you are making the OP more OP while making the weakest ones comparatively weaker, this evaluation of strength in the towns is the whole community opinion as per the vote currently, not mine.

And nobility doesn't "thematically fit" converting whole town alignmements. If anything Nobility would fit staying the same town. Dynasties, traditions, coats of arms, identity and all...

I would say Town Conversion thematically fits Stealth since it would be a sneaky surprise tactic that comes out of nowhere and a change of identity much like Rogues do ; )
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Albyx
Albyx


Known Hero
posted January 26, 2023 10:38 PM
Edited by Albyx at 22:32, 27 Jan 2023.

NimoStar said:


Nature doesn't have access to nobility, what are you saying. Only Death, Life and Order of the magic towns have access to nobility (the same strongest ones that got zero votes in the poll for weakest town)... while you deny access to the new features to Nature and Chaos, considered the weakest other than Might (which bears saying, has a very steep cost of 2500 for non-barbarian heroes, while other factions just pay 2000 for secondary or 1500 for two kinds of primaries, not just 1). So you are making the OP more OP while making the weakest ones comparatively weaker, this evaluation of strength in the towns is the whole community opinion as per the vote currently, not mine.


I'm sorry, but you are objectively wrong here. Here is part of Enhancement Mod changelog for Nature:
Buildings:

- NEW BUILDING: Adventurer's Guild:

- Allows to hire Order and Death heroes in the tavern,

- Requires Tavern,

- Cost: gold 1000, wood 15.


Nature has access to Nobility in my mod. And even if only Life, Order and Death had access to it, nothing would've changed because...

NimoStar said:
That is entirely map dependent, I could say that Nature goes well with maps gfull of sawmills because they need way too much wood, but that sort of observation isn't really a balance comment.

Balance is entirely map dependent. We are playing maps, not faction vs faction armies competition.

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karmakeld
karmakeld


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted January 27, 2023 05:56 PM
Edited by karmakeld at 18:02, 27 Jan 2023.

Deleted
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NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted January 28, 2023 02:21 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 02:21, 28 Jan 2023.

I also would like to point out that game developers gave Tactics heroes to Life and Death. This means they recognized that Tactics was such a fundamental skill that all factions needed access to it to be competitive.

Likewise should be considered Nobility since nobody in the long term can compete with +50% creature growth with also extra gold to recruit. If Tactics is Life and Death, Nobility should likewise be Order and Chaos.

Other than that, all my arguments haven't changed.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree in something where I am fundamentally right

Plus, look at the new, regal hero portraits for Impostors. They're absolutely adorable and not at all suspicious


It's also canon, and even the default biographies of "thieves" so often say that they impersonate royalty. Who said that H4 didn't have Minotaur Kings?
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dD_ShockTroop
dD_ShockTroop


Hired Hero
posted February 04, 2023 03:28 AM

There was mention that thieves are not unique because everyone can get all skills anyway. I want to point out this isn't true in the slightest. What makes thieves unique is they have the Thief class, the only class in the game which is guaranteed to be offered two scouting skills on levelup, which greatly improves the odds of getting the highly desirable stealth skills quickly, instead of being offered useless stuff like Seamanship. As such they can quickly acquire GM stealth in far fewer levels than anyone else, even if their competitor had a university to train them scouting + stealth on level 1.

In general, I am a firm believer that advanced classes are in fact weaker than base classes. The small bonus does not make up for the chance of being offered only bad skills! Every skill tree has at least one dud skill you do not want (except death magic, but you generally want necromancy immediately before continuing the main branch), while usually offering huge bonuses for completing the good one. Advanced classes should only be acquired once you have many levels and have already achieved what you wanted from your base class.

Regarding the imposter, I do think it's an improvement, as Chaos/Nature lacking the ability to purchase +10% creature growth at the tavern is such a huge disadvantage for them, while the thief is a pretty niche use class. But at the same time the imposter class being offered one scouting and one nobility skill on level up really makes it significantly worse than the thief if you actually plan on leveling them, since you can't focus on nobility/estates like the noble, nor scouting/stealth like the thief, and you can get really terrible options like Seamanship/Diplomacy.

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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
posted February 04, 2023 06:51 AM

^ Agreed. Base classes are better.
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Ghost
Ghost


Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
posted February 07, 2023 11:51 AM

Recently I played Return to the Avenger.. (MWM2).. Ok I played Order, so I watched Life, Death and Scouting But HoMM offered Death.. And I returned here.. Nice listening/reading that Stealth is a problem matter.. I'm so very aging 44yo to say my ex-nickname Hexis.. I think add on signature.. Yes dD_ShockTroop is right, if I so understood English..

You can play MWM2, in there map gives you thoughts.. So complete map and H4.. Sucking H4E..
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vulcancolak
vulcancolak


Famous Hero
posted February 09, 2023 11:55 PM
Edited by vulcancolak at 00:02, 10 Feb 2023.

Stealth = Broken.
I have already prevented this stupid skill from my mod and my maps.
There are no known counter for the Stealth.

If you are good at this game, you can do everything you want only with 1 thief. While your enemy busy with the fighting, spending gold for the army, you are just "walking" next to the monsters and get many prizes. You can even go and capture enemy mines and their neutral stacks becomes your guardians. You are always nervous because of this stupid Hero.

And with Logistics and Scouting skills you can control the game easily.

Not only the Stealth skills broken. Logistics and Scouting is definitely best skills because it is making sluggish units faster than their own neutral. I have prevented logistic skills for my Heroes 5 mod for too.

I have tried to balance it many ways i can but thief is overpowered and unstoppable. It doesn't matter easy or champion difficulty. If you are thief, you have the advantage always

UNLESS if you are playing on Small map with many advantages (many chests, easy to develop)

Heroes of Might and Magic IV and Warcraft III are the only games i never stopped playing since 20+ years. I have already mastered on it with many ways i can and game is becomes easy mode and boring if you have the Thief (ok it is fun actually but not for the enemy..)

Currently i am 38 years old, still active and i have spent nearly 75% of my gaming life into 2 games. Heroes 4 and Warcraft III. this is why i can  argue with anyone about this game.

In the other hand, i was already forbid few spells from my mod but it is another topic.

Nobility = Good skill.

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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
posted February 10, 2023 08:35 AM

@vulcancolak


What do you think of the Citadel and Castle in H4? In my own opinion they are overpriced and unnecessary. Change my mind.
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vulcancolak
vulcancolak


Famous Hero
posted February 10, 2023 11:00 AM

Drakon-Deus said:
@vulcancolak


What do you think of the Citadel and Castle in H4? In my own opinion they are overpriced and unnecessary. Change my mind.


Drakon-Deus said:
@vulcancolak


What do you think of the Citadel and Castle in H4? In my own opinion they are overpriced and unnecessary. Change my mind.


Ok sir let me try.

Citadel and Castle also provides attack and defense bonus while trying to attack enemy from inside to outside.

Additionally Citadel and Castle creates moat that decreases attack and defense by 25% of the units front of the walls and gate.

And Castle adds 3 towers that increases attack 100%, defense 100%, removes range penalty and still you are able to use your range attack when the enemy nearby.

Heroes 4 trade costs are ridiciolusly low when compared with others. You can build any building with trading easily.

Still you think it is overpriced and unnecessary?

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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
posted February 10, 2023 04:56 PM

Okay maybe Castle is not. But Citadel is. Citadel should be removed and Castle left as it is. Again, my opinion.
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iliveinabox05
iliveinabox05


Honorable
Famous Hero
posted February 10, 2023 05:07 PM
Edited by iliveinabox05 at 17:08, 10 Feb 2023.

It has been discussed about adding a single tower to citadel, which could make it worth it (and it is very easy to do). Albyx mentioned looking into figuring out how to get the AI to stand on it, but hasn't discovered it yet that I know of.

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vulcancolak
vulcancolak


Famous Hero
posted February 10, 2023 05:22 PM

Drakon-Deus said:
Okay maybe Castle is not. But Citadel is. Citadel should be removed and Castle left as it is. Again, my opinion.

I agree with you actually. Citadel looks like a "forced requirement" between Fort and Castle.

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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
posted February 10, 2023 05:50 PM

@vulcancolak


Good.
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ceceron
ceceron

Tavern Dweller
posted February 11, 2023 12:44 AM

vulcancolak said:

I agree with you actually. Citadel looks like a "forced requirement" between Fort and Castle.



IMHO it's exactly the idea behind the Citadel.
I agree that Citadel is not very useful and on the other hand Castle is sometimes a real game changer.

The only reason for the Citadel to exist is to make it more difficult to build a Castle. Imagine a case when you spend all your resources on units and ignore building a Citadel. When an enemy appears next to your town, you need 2 turns to prepare a proper defense: first to build Citadel, second to build Castle. In other words, the role of the Citadel is to make the Castle more difficult to build not because of the resource cost, but because of the additional turn wasted on the Citadel.

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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
posted March 31, 2023 09:05 AM

Ceceron has a good point.

I still strongly dislike the Citadel as it is though.
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heymlich
heymlich


Famous Hero
posted September 02, 2023 12:24 PM
Edited by heymlich at 12:35, 02 Sep 2023.

Drakon-Deus said:
Nobility and Stealth come first to mind as subjects.



First thing I do before I start a game is to open the map in map editor and disable stealth + diplomacy (and charm).

dD_ShockTroop said:

In general, I am a firm believer that advanced classes are in fact weaker than base classes. The small bonus does not make up for the chance of being offered only bad skills!


I feel the Warden might be an exception to this rule.

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Ghost
Ghost


Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
posted September 03, 2023 05:37 PM

MWM2 "banned" Stealth , but yes you get a Stealth, if you are searching for skill.. Why I banned Stealth? Pre-MWM2 I played too much Stealth with.. I noticed Stealth gives experience points, so I made Scouting neutral heroes, etc Later on AIs.. So strong! I reached 70 lvl.. Hmm vlaad invented Stealth in H3 WoG 3.58f Maybe random! But too much random.. No important, yes Stealth is welcoming! Too Diplomacy! You get 1 megadragon for 1000 gold..
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heymlich
heymlich


Famous Hero
posted September 03, 2023 08:31 PM

THe really bad thing about stealth is that it depends on creature level, not power. So if there is a stack of 30k lvl 1 creatures on the map, you just need advanced stealth to get their free XP.

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Ghost
Ghost


Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
posted September 03, 2023 09:02 PM

Normal

I'm O_o because of sleeping pill..

Sometimes, I give a Stealth, for example, and you get sucking skill, thus IMO, my planning map, and I kill you.. Welcome to MWM.. and my baits.. But GM players don't chase them.. Ok then!

So H3 HotA must have a Stealth.. And many mapmakers create thousands.. But also from the bosses.. A normal game, you reach too little..
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Fight MWMs - stand teach

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