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Heroes Community > Volcanic Wastelands > Thread: NATO?
Thread: NATO? This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted March 08, 2023 08:19 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 20:20, 08 Mar 2023.

@phe

Actually the first link, if you read till the end, says this :

In conclusion, I must disappoint all supporters of the theory of flying saucers and the mysterious Wunderwaffe from the Riese or Roswell complex. Vitaly Popov's story was created by me to embellish this article. Certainly, like most of the mystery saucer stories we know. There is no evidence or documents that could confirm the construction of anti-gravity vehicles. Secret bases in Antarctica or the moon have also not been discovered by Apollo missions, Elon Musk's vehicles, or shown on Wikileaks.

Now going on second link.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 08, 2023 10:27 PM

@ artu

That Ukraine might become a NATO member has been discussed in 2008 (under Bush) already. Ukraine and Georgia were to be offered an invitation and a road map to membership- In the case of Georgia Russia simply prevented it by fuel the internal conflicts, making Heorgia ineligible.
In 2008, three members voted against inclusion of Ukraine, two of them Germany and France, the former well aware that NATO membership of Ukraine might destabilize the general situation.

In 2014 Russia made SURE, Ukraine wouldn't be a member with the same strategy they followed in Georgia. With the "unrest" in parts of Ukraine and the conflict with Russia an INVITATION couldn't have happened, because countries in any kind of conflict cannot become BATO members. What Stoltenberg said in 2021, that countries could determine their future themselves, blabla, is of no consequence - countries must be INVITED and ALL memvers must be in favor.

In short: while Ukraine jas NATO membership as a goal in their constitution for a couple of years now, as long as the situation has been as it was, no membership would ever have happened. The esxalation of fullout war was unnecessary, especially considering the consequences.

That means, the goal and the reasons of the "special operation" must have been WAY more far-reaching, because there was no danger that Ukraine would become a NATO member in that situation.

If you google a bit I don't doubt you'll find all pertinent info, like NATO article 10, the 2008 proceedings and so on.

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gatecrasher
gatecrasher


Famous Hero
posted March 08, 2023 11:46 PM

artu said:
Remember, in the related thread, I have linked a prominent American political scientist, who openly explains if they (U.S.A and NATO) dont start treating Ukraine as a neutral country and not an ally, Russia will feel threatened and Ukraine will get crashed, years before any of this. That is a bullseye prediction in a time when almost nobody thought Russia would dare such a thing. Only because it doesnt justify the invasion, doesnt mean the provocation doesnt exist.

Yes, nobody would have attacked Russia out of the blue under normal circumstances but that's not how countries estimate threat assessment, they plan the logistics according to a hypothetical attack which may happen in the future. Keep in mind, that is also how USA positions his arms in the region, not to attack immediately, but to establish a logistical advantage in response to a threat.



I don't buy this threat (assessment) argument. How is a NATO member Ukraine a bigger threat than interconinental nuclear missles which can be launched from US territory (or any other remote territory)?

There really is no meaningful military/existential threat, there is a much more realistic threat to economical power, influence and prestige though.

Same with Taiwan. China isn't concerned about the military capabilities of an independent Taiwan.

Russia has direct borders with Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland, Norway, Poland and is close to Japan or even Alaska (US). Countries who are NATO members or no allies at least. So what about that "threat"? There is much less economic interrelations/influence/prestige to be lost for Russia when it comes to those contries.

Russia, still the biggest country in the world yet they can't cut the mustard regardless.

Cold war is over but now we know it's still Russia NATO is allied against.

What Russia fears is EU, not NATO. Or whatever else introduces new economic an cultural ties to ex-Soviet states.

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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted March 09, 2023 12:07 AM

@Galaad and artu. Is it a mistake for Finland to apply to NATO?
Would it be a mistake (in general) if NATO accepts?
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted March 09, 2023 12:11 AM

What people fail to understand is the other side perspective. If there is no threat having foreign military bases at your borders, then why US threatened Cuba with nuclear war as soon as the soviets tried to implement one? Why they threatened with invasion the Salomon Islands (2500 km from US borders) 2 months ago, when there was a rumor that China will put a military base on?

So far there are more than 700 US military bases in foreign countries.

Russia has 20.

In the last 30 years or so, we can't say Russia competed with the negative military impact USA had, especially in the middle east. Not being anti-American for the least, I kinda understand economic and Geo-political challenges, but it strikes me how half-blind are some people, always looking in one direction but never in the other, where then symmetrical actions get a rational explanation.
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gatecrasher
gatecrasher


Famous Hero
posted March 09, 2023 02:02 AM
Edited by gatecrasher at 02:06, 09 Mar 2023.

US bases all over the world is partly a holdover from WW2 times and the ex-UK Commonwealth. And well, the Soviet Union basically lost the Cold War.
But be that as it may, military presence all around the globe (not even unofficial Wagner one) isn't a prerequisite of being a global superpower anymore. Look at China or at India in 10 years.

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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
posted March 09, 2023 05:28 AM

Why is it that Russia invading Ukraine is a tragedy but USA and NATO doing that in Afghanistan and Iraq is perfectly fine?

Billion dollar question...
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Ghost
Ghost


Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
posted March 09, 2023 08:32 AM

@DD

NATO!

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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
posted March 09, 2023 09:03 AM

Ghost said:
@DD

NATO!


Put it in the trash can.
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gatecrasher
gatecrasher


Famous Hero
posted March 09, 2023 10:06 AM

Drakon-Deus said:
Why is it that Russia invading Ukraine is a tragedy but USA and NATO doing that in Afghanistan and Iraq is perfectly fine?

Billion dollar question...


1. Off subject

2. Please, no whataboutism nonsense again.

3. Who are you attacking here? Who said the wars in Afghanistsn/Iraq were no tragedies? But if you want to do your whataboutism which Afghan/Iraqi cities did the US bomb to smithereens? Which Afghan/Iraqi territories did they incorporate into US territory?
Speaking of Afghanistan. What's the name of the foreign power who conducted a "military special operation" there from 1979 to 1989, causing the civil war which lasted until the US troops came in 2001?

If you want to talk about US troops attacking civil targets on a large scale you need to wind back to Vietnam.

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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
posted March 09, 2023 10:10 AM
Edited by Drakon-Deus at 10:13, 09 Mar 2023.

Yeah, when I ask questions that you don't want to answer it's off subject, sure.

@ your question, the name of that superpower is the Soviet Union. I never said otherwise.

But it's nothing new to me. Hypocrisy is the way of the EU and NATO. And their supporters.

I have nothing to gain from talking to you, gatecrasher. Good day.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 09, 2023 11:26 AM

@ Salamandre

Please do us all a favor and stop pretending anyone COULD understand "the other side's perspective" (or, in fact, the own side's as well). No one can, because we don't know that perspective. We cannot put ourselves into the shoes of people like Putin or Trump or Biden or Napoleon or whoever else is at the helm in some country.

All we can do is ASSUME things, but those assumptions have to fit the facts. And if you google a bit, you'll see that State-Sec Lawrov in 2005 Georgia and Ukraine "allowed" to apply for NATO, stating, it was their right. In fact, even PUTIN wanted RUSSIA to be part of NATO in that period.

Whatever the problem is Russia has with Ukraine, it's highly unlikely it has to do with the fact that the Ukraine wants to be part of NATO and the EU. That's not an explanation that makes ANY sense. As I said, Ukraine has been on the table in 2008, but was declined by Germany and France (Merkel and Sarkozy), the way Turkey is now blocking Sweden and Finnland.

There was and is NO danger of Ukraine becoming a NATO member, even if Ukraine wants to.

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gatecrasher
gatecrasher


Famous Hero
posted March 09, 2023 11:47 AM

Drakon-Deus said:
Yeah, when I ask questions that you don't want to answer it's off subject, sure.

@ your question, the name of that superpower is the Soviet Union. I never said otherwise.

But it's nothing new to me. Hypocrisy is the way of the EU and NATO. And their supporters.

I have nothing to gain from talking to you, gatecrasher. Good day.


If your sole line of argument is comparison with historical oranges and "responding" to claims nobody brought up, I'll call that off subject, yes. But that point was actually out of respect to the discussion thread. I did answer in fact.

It is because what Russia is doing is at least one step up.
By the way, where I live the Iraq war brought people to the street in a similar manner the war on Ukraine has done.

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Ghost
Ghost


Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
posted March 09, 2023 12:57 PM

Iraq? A very warm welcome..

A long history too fabulous.. Then kebab, yogurt, tea room, bazaar.. And the future is promising to Iraq..

@DD

NATO!

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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
posted March 09, 2023 01:41 PM

@Ghost

NATO to the trashcan.
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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted March 09, 2023 01:51 PM

JollyJoker said:
How can anybody in their right mind think Pitin attacked Ukraine out of FEAR? That's absurd.


That's not the point. The point is, if Russia really sees NATO as a threat to them I find it unwise to not at least consider it. I believe a clever dialogue between the West and Russia could have prevented Putin's "special operation".
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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 09, 2023 02:35 PM

@JJ

I know about the article but if there is a will and pressure from U.S. there eventually may be or may have been a work around. And it doesnt have to be official full membership either. The point is, in Russia’s eyes, this is a war against Western expansionism, that is the intent in their perception. And keep in mind that no matter what Putin is, he is not some deranged ex-corporal, he comes from Intelligence, KGB.
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Ghost
Ghost


Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
posted March 09, 2023 02:42 PM

@artu

No.. Read and use a translator https://www.iltalehti.fi/ulkomaat/a/2015050719642670

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted March 09, 2023 03:34 PM

@ artu

You argue against the facts. Let me repeat that:
1) Ukraine was (with Georgia) on the table in 2008 already, but Germany and France vetoed it.

2) In 2014 Russia annexed the Crimea (against the Budapest treaty they signed), entangling Ukraine in a permanent conflict, fueling pro-Russia movements in the Donbas. As long as that conflict was on - and keep in mind, that Ukraine isn't EVEN NOW prepared to accept the loss of Donbas OR the Crimea - Ukraine COULDN'T become a member of NATO (not to mention that it would have been folly to even consider it, because that might involve NATO directly in the conflict, so there would have been enough members to veto it, should it have brought to the table again) - there was no danger whatsoever Ukraine could become a member of NATO.
So Russia could just have maintained the status quo and been assured of Ukraine to never become a member of NATO.

Now, obviously, that "special operation" not only had an operational goal, it also must have had a strategic, that is, a long-term goal. Suppose, the SO would have been successful: Reach Kiev within six weeks, install a puppet regime, split off the Donbas into "independent republics" or whatever, strengthen ties with the remaining part of Ukraine, ending the war officially?

What long-term goal could be worth the possible repercussions this behaviour would NECESSARILY provoke? Or is it imaginable that the EU watched how Russia conquers the second largest European country and NOT react accordingly (by spending a ton more on military, rethinking their ties and dependencies and don't put any trust in treaties with Russia)?
I don't think so. Sweden has been neutral since the dawn of time - now? Are they blinkered as well?

I think it's imaginable Putin has a brain tumor or something like that, which can lead to behaviour changes. He puts a lot on the line, Russia sold twelve tons of gold to rectify their deficit - they are in big trouble. For what?

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted March 09, 2023 08:15 PM

Russia sold 3,5 tones of gold, not 12.

Russia has 2298.53 tones of gold in its reserve.

If Putin has a brain tumor for reaching 25 billions USD of deficit, what is the size of Macron's brain tumor for extending France's debt by 600 billions which brings our budget deficit at 165 billions USD

You guys act with so much dishonesty, like everyone is living in a paradise then only Russia reaching the abysses because Putin muh bad, brain tumor and flat feet. No, they are doing much better than us, with IMF predicting for 2024 that  Russia’s GDP will increase by as much as 2.1%. Source

IMF 2024 predictions for France and Germany : 1,4 and respectively 1,6. Get real?
 
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