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| Thread: Allowed and banned heroes in HotA | |
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted June 30, 2023 12:30 PM |
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Allowed and banned heroes in HotA
Okay so Sir Mullich and Galthran are (mostly) banned in HotA, but lets look at some other awesome heroes:
* The 3 Logistics specialists: Well Logistics was nerfed in HotA, so these guys are probably more reasonable now. (Before the Logistics nerf they were no doubt the best heroes in the game, especially on larger, slower maps.)
* The 3 Navigation specialists: A lot of people don't play water maps, but these guys have the potential to be extremely fast on water, especially Elmore.
* Miriam and Beatrice: Scouting specialty could have potential, Miriam even starts with Logistics too.
* Crag Hack and Tazar: Still the big, migthy boys, since they start with one advanced skill, there is a risk of getting bad skills though. (Gundula, Corkes and Mephala are also great.)
* The 3 Intelligence specialists: Intelligence recieved a big nerf in HotA, so these guys are not that insane anymore, still great though.
* Alkin: Great starting skills, skill progression and specialty.
* Grindan: Slow recieved a small nerf, he is still great though.
* Labetha: "Grindan light", still the only other hero that starts with Earth Magic.
* Luna: I personally don't like her that much, but I respect the power she has early game.
* Thant: Was actually buffed in HotA, since Mysticism is much better in HotA. This guy is really awesome, especially considering how hard it sometimes is to learn Animate Dead in HotA. (I do not allow spell research.)
* Alamar and Jeddite: Starting with Resurrection is great, they need Advanced Earth to actually use it though and it does'nt work on Black Dragons. Alamar can potentially teach Resurrection with a few level ups.
* Deemer and Aislinn: Meteor Shower is a powerful and cost efficient spell.
* Solmyr: Well he is a legend and Chain Lightning is amazing.
* The 3 Haste specialists: We all know how OP Mass Haste is and these guys make it even better!
* Loynis: Yes I know he starts with Learning, which sucks, but that Prayer specialty should not be underestimated.
* Eovacius: Clone specialty is insane!
* Any +350 gold hero: Maybe not always "main hero potential", but always great heroes, especially on poorer maps and on higher difficulties.
Did I forget other great heroes?
Do you agree with the Sir Mullich and Galthran ban?, and are there perhaps heroes even stronger than those two in HotA?
Please disregard campaign heroes, most of these are usually not allowed for a good reason.
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gatecrasher
Famous Hero
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posted June 30, 2023 12:46 PM |
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I think Luna should be nerfed by patching the AI. Stopping 1-hex troops from running into the firewall.
Alternatively firewalls should be visible to the Caster only. But this would even improve Luna (and the Fire Wall spell).
Apart from her, not that many awesome heroes in your list.
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted June 30, 2023 12:57 PM |
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gatecrasher said:
Apart from her, not that many awesome heroes in your list.
Okay, who do you consider awesome heroes then?
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Hourglass
Supreme Hero
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posted June 30, 2023 07:29 PM |
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I think overall it's a very solid list, Phoenix.
I agree that most of these heroes truly deserve to be on list like this, but I would slightly disagree with few of them:
Beatrice: Overall pretty good hero, clearly above average, but I would say the competition on higher tier heroes takes over Beatrice. While Scouting specialty is good, I wouldn't rate someone like Miriam as a top 20 hero or something, and there's clearly a big gap between the two Scouting specialists. So for me it's quite clear Beatrice - despite being a good hero - shouldn't have a spot on this list.
Ayden: It's just that I would rate Heretic as the least useful class, it's such as uphill battle to build a decent Ayden, the odds just aren't in your favor.
Terek: Battle mages are kinda all over the place, and as hybrid might and magic class, kinda make them unpredictable with no clear focus. While Haste specialty is a great ability, it can make some headache to make Terek work properly.
Loynis: The only clear miss on this list, as Loynis ends up being below average hero. Prayer is only really worth it, if you have expert Water magic. As you still want to build Earth first, the Loynis powerspike ain't coming any time soon. And Learning, sadly, is mostly just making any hero worse. Loynis would be a better hero if he started with Basic Wisdom and nothing else. I think Prayer is a powerful specialty overall, but Loynis just hit the nail in the right way. Maybe if he was from other class, and would have a proper choice for secondary skill.
But as for the rest of the list, I could see why they are there.
phoenix4ever said:
Did I forget other great heroes?
Well, it's not like I have sort of list of my own We don't need to go further down the route, I remember your opinion towards Interference, but I've also Giselle listed among top tier heroes. If she has decent casting, it's just very hard to ensure victory against her.
I've also included Shakti. Overlord with top tier secondary skills, and the trogs give him insane early game tempo.
Mephala should also be included more than just a "honorable mention", I have hard time believing she could be left without a spot in top 10 best heroes in the game.
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted June 30, 2023 08:09 PM |
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Hi Hourglass
It's okay we don't have to agree 100%, however:
Beatrice: Well obviously Miriam is better, some people might still enjoy the Scouting specialty though.
Ayden: I don't think Heretics get that awful skills. Witches, warlocks, wizards and elementalists often end up with worse skills in my experience.
Terek: While Battle Mages are masters of none, they are more like jack of all trades and I kinda like that. Getting the correct magic schools can be a minor problem for Battle Mages though. Terek also starts with Tactics, which is great for Stronghold.
Loynis: Do not underestimate this hero!
Yes you need Water Magic, but with a full Castle army he is awesome. Archangels have (at least) 18 speed so will usually get initiative first, then the first thing you do is cast Mass Prayer and absolutely destroy. Champions will have (at least) 14 speed, so they cross the battlefield and deal huge damage.
Giselle: She sounds good, but I don't play with Interference and I don't allow Giselle so meh.
Shakti: Yes good for the starting army and starting skills, troglodyte specialty will probably become useless pretty soon though.
Mephala: Is a great hero and more than an honorable mention, (she also looks great) she is not as tough as Tazar though.
Do you agree Logistics specialists were the very best heroes on larger maps, before HotA nerfed Logistics?
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted June 30, 2023 09:34 PM |
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Crag and Tazar have their lesser clones. Not that Corkes is second to anyone, with a good chance to get the Water Crag misses.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted July 01, 2023 01:07 PM |
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Yup! If you know Heroes 3 WoG.. Nagash got a Veil of Darkness, and Jeddite got a Builder! No else than optional rules, if you want be.. Ok then MOD means graphics, bug fixes and more strong AI.. Ok?
Now's topic.. I don't agree with banned Mullich and Galthran, but twitch HotA showed Galthran often, and maybe once I've seen some played Mullich. Yes you forgot or dislike Neela. What about Eovacius? An idea isn't a new, when WoG/ERA you can play Clone. I suggested Clone, and maybe they realized their own. The same thing Berserk by AI. I think they can accept what's the common or they can do scripts. If they would make a Force Field, etc it's first time in Heroes 3 MOD. Fnord made Berserk, not HotA.
Solmyr? I don't like him a great hero. If you wanted pure RoE player, so very bad hero, so Neela is much better pussy than some Lightning gay. Deemer out too. If you think a tournament, friend match, etc Real RoE player! Then keep the same idea in SoD, etc Because Scholar is better than Sorcery, so WoG you get excellent skill than Sorcery, where are immune WoG monsters or WoG abilities. I don't think HotA corrects Scholar and Sorcery yet. Impossible, thus the same, and only what they can do Eagle Eye.
Thant is OP! Or extreme OP in HotA. Ok maybe later on I add on something. 
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted July 01, 2023 01:16 PM |
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One yet! Only Neela needs Fly, DD and maybe Implosion and Summon Earth Elemental, so Neela visits her town, otherwise Neela walks around, and her scouts give her troops, and Neela gets spells too, thus Sorcery is sucking. Sorcery? Inferno and Dungeon Nice chaos/confusion skills and spells. An old system! But true culture!
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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Hourglass
Supreme Hero
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posted July 01, 2023 02:47 PM |
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Phoenix4ever said:
Ayden: I don't think Heretics get that awful skills. Witches, warlocks, wizards and elementalists often end up with worse skills in my experience.
I think I agree skill-wise, the issue that I'm having with Heretics is that they don't really seem to fit for any suitable role. Obviously, they're really lacking to be properly used as mains, but they don't really serve much purpose as secondary heroes, either. I believe the worst class is decided by margins. For me the thing that pushes Heretics as the worst is the fact that they happen to start with 1 Knowledge. Their stat distribution makes them equal to bad might heroes, whereas something like Witches (with clearly worse skill table) are actually average mages, and thus have at least something going on with them.
Whereas some other class is in the bottom or not, it's not very suitable spot to start building your main hero, and that's why I would exclude Ayden from the list.
Phoenix4ever said:
Loynis: Do not underestimate this hero!
Yes you need Water Magic, but with a full Castle army he is awesome. Archangels have (at least) 18 speed so will usually get initiative first, then the first thing you do is cast Mass Prayer and absolutely destroy. Champions will have (at least) 14 speed, so they cross the battlefield and deal huge damage.
Well, it's not like you wouldn't be able to eventually make Loynis work, but the practice has shown that other good heroes simply outmatch Loynis when it comes down how effectively you can take over the map. Loynis doesn't give any real tempo for the player, actually he is bit anti-tempo due Learning, as you're basically carrying dead weight by having it. Cleric is also a weak hero class for main hero purposes.
Phoenix4ever said:
Shakti: Yes good for the starting army and starting skills, troglodyte specialty will probably become useless pretty soon though.
Only Galthran is really able to keep their early stack as a powerhouse, the trogs will sure become obsolete very soon in the game. However, they make really good army for the early game, giving you insane amounts of tempo. With Shakti you can ensure a good early game and late game.
Phoenix4ever said:
Do you agree Logistics specialists were the very best heroes on larger maps, before HotA nerfed Logistics?
Yeah, I do agree. Gunnar is probably the best hero in the game before Logistics nerf, now he's like in the top 5.
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted July 01, 2023 04:10 PM |
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@Hourglass
Ayden: Yeah the 1 Knowledge is kinda annoying, maybe even more for Xarfax and Xyron, which can't even cast their starting spells.
But Battle Mages and all might heroes, except Alchemists, also starts with only 1 Knowledge, does'nt mean they are all bad. But it would be wise to seek out Knowledge soon.
Loynis: Well if you are looking for tempo, a lot of heroes don't really provide that, but Loynis can fight, almost like if he was a (super fast) might hero and still have lots of Power and Knowledge. His shooters will also become very fast and even Crusaders might be able to cross the battlefield.
But okay, we don't have to fully agree here.
Shakti: I think he is mostly good for shorter and more multiplayer focused maps, if you are looking at 4-5 months long scenarios, I'm not sure I would even consider him good.
(Galthran stays relevant due to best bonus of all creature specialists, Necromancy AND Skeleton Transformer!)
Yeah regarding Logistics specialists, I play with 10/20/30% Logistics, so these guys feels extremely good on larger maps. I'm not sure if I should change their specialty, lower their bonus or just accept them as the mighty gods that they are...
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gatecrasher
Famous Hero
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posted July 01, 2023 08:00 PM |
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Yikes, Shakti is one of the best heroes of the game and the early weeks are make-or-break.
It's quite debatable though how suitable he is as main.
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted July 01, 2023 08:03 PM |
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gatecrasher said:
It's quite debatable though how suitable he is as main.
That was my point.
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Hourglass
Supreme Hero
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posted July 01, 2023 10:30 PM |
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gatecrasher said:
Yikes, Shakti is one of the best heroes of the game and the early weeks are make-or-break.
It's quite debatable though how suitable he is as main.
Debatable? Oh wow
I mean, you start with him, upgrade trogs on turn one (doable even on impossible) and you've already given yourself quite an army for the upcoming turns. Shakti is very good early on, Offence doesn't need explanation, and Tactics can ensure trickier fights, such as dwellings, especially Dragon caves, which you can easily clear during first week with Shakti. Then do the usual Portal of Summoning shenanigans and prepare for the week 2 with 4 dragons or so.
Overlord is arguably the best hero class in the game, and Shakti starts with premium skills. Overlords also have best possible chances at acquiring Earth on lvl 4.
Only a handful of heroes start with extremely good, scaling specialties, and even they don't see as flying early game as Shakti does.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted July 02, 2023 03:37 AM |
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Think about Master Gremlins vs 3 Giants.. Another reason that H3 can't be everything the same speciality.. But I play WoG/ERA, where are +5lvl dwellings grow number of guards.. 1 month means 12 Giants Later on H4 HotA went to backwards..
I remember one guy.. We played Hot Seat.. His always Troglodytes and Harpy Hags or Infernal Troglodytes and Harpies.. Not easy! Scout vs Scout, I invented unused spell points and Intelligence vs his Mysticism.. RoE! So Dragon Cave in only campaign.. JVC taught well.. When first idea is Implosion, etc, but second you find them.. Third is Dragon Utopia..
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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gatecrasher
Famous Hero
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posted July 02, 2023 11:52 AM |
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Hourglass said:
gatecrasher said:
Yikes, Shakti is one of the best heroes of the game and the early weeks are make-or-break.
It's quite debatable though how suitable he is as main.
Debatable? Oh wow
I mean, you start with him, upgrade trogs on turn one (doable even on impossible) and you've already given yourself quite an army for the upcoming turns. Shakti is very good early on, Offence doesn't need explanation, and Tactics can ensure trickier fights, such as dwellings, especially Dragon caves, which you can easily clear during first week with Shakti. Then do the usual Portal of Summoning shenanigans and prepare for the week 2 with 4 dragons or so.
Overlord is arguably the best hero class in the game, and Shakti starts with premium skills. Overlords also have best possible chances at acquiring Earth on lvl 4.
Only a handful of heroes start with extremely good, scaling specialties, and even they don't see as flying early game as Shakti does.
Just depends on who pops up in the Tavern in the first 2 weeks.
Sure, he's the best Dungeon hero to start a game with, I'm just saying he isn't as universal as some others. You wouldn't neccessarily pick him as main without access to a Dungeon town
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Rimgrabber
Promising
Famous Hero
Voice in Gelu's Head
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posted July 02, 2023 07:56 PM |
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Clerics really aren't that terrible of a class. They have a really high chance of getting air/water magic, diplomacy and intelligence and a decent chance of getting offense and logistics. I'd rather main a Cleric than most of the other magic classes. Loynis's biggest issue is starting wit learning, not that he's a Cleric. Adela is a better option IMO, her specialization is pretty powerful.
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted July 02, 2023 08:09 PM |
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Maybe, but Diplomacy does'nt seem that good in HotA, unless you got a lot of money.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted July 03, 2023 08:50 AM |
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Yup! But you don't build a whole town, only what you need creatures.. An example Lexiav used only Arch Devils, and beat the 7 human opponents in MP.. Ok cheap Stronghold  Sal uses the same tactic.. When Spoils of War taught already! Fun if player used large 1-7lvl, and AI opponent 1-3lvl, thus player needed creatures in the RoE campaign.. Ok HotA meta plus only 7lvl.. Maretti chooses Stronghold.. Ok cheat Twitch players, elite players, tournament players.. Random! So Castle is expensive 
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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