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| Thread: Olden Era - what to keep / what to improve / where to innovate |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted August 25, 2024 12:02 AM |
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Olden Era - what to keep / what to improve / where to innovate
Welcome to the new forum.
Heroes of Might and Magic Olden Era is the upcoming remake of Heroes of Might and Magic 3.
Looking back, Heroes 2 was a big improvement over Heroes 1, Heroes 3 was a big improvement over Heroes 2, but Heroes 4 took a very new direction and received a mixed response. Heroes 5 was also quite different from both 3 and 4. This trend continued in a sense that for many old time players Heroes 3 remained the pinnacle of the series. It is understandable why Heroes 3 was chosen as the foundation. 3D-like iterations were quite widely explored from Heroes 5 onwards.
When it comes to creating a remake, if the game is too similar, we already have Heroes 3. If the game is too different, it might not deliver on the promise.
What are everyone's takes on what should definitely be kept from Heroes 3 and what definitely needs to be improved? And in which areas of the game do you want to see innovation?
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted August 25, 2024 06:33 AM |
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Heroes 5 was a development of Heroes 3, the way Heroes 3 was a development of Heroes 2, at least mechanics-wise.
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Syth1984
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 25, 2024 02:06 PM |
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Have been here since H3 but I couldn't find my old account  .So a heavy player of HOTA but with an experience in H2,H4, H5 and H7 here are my points if anybody wants to listen.
Weekly availability must return.Production per day is not strategic.It should at least take 2 weeks to reach to a 7th level creature.Week two wyerns are a bit tastless in my opinion.Some castles should build faster but should also have long term options.Same slow build castles could capitalize on long term plans but could have some short term options.
Townportal taking a huge chunk of movement but is universally available was nice touch.
Again summoning creatures was a nice but caravans would work too.
Experience for losing side must be kept for competitive play.People escape on turn 1 not to give experience since they have nothing to gain from.This changed a bit in the late versions of it which was great.It also give somewhat hit and run tactics or wearing down tactics which are legit.
Speed and initiative must be different. Not all battlemaps should be the same size maybe.Even then the terrain should effect the movement speed there as well.How can you move in a swamp area and lush fields in the same speed even on the battlemap?
Shouldn’t overdo logistics and travel spells.Hero chaining should be possible but should also has limits. Maybe the heroes should reduce speed more hero stack it has in its army.So large armies move slower.
I like the last iterations basic(cavalary-ranged-melle)+advanced+Expert level creature dwelling style grouping.Best thing from H7. So the the power levels between creatures do not become that much different and no stack becomes so much cannon fodder.
No enemy retaliation or first strike kind of abilities should be locked into the creatures advanced level. Basic level creatures should be a base and tasty stuff should be locked behind upgrades.
Magic system should not be one hundred spell schools. Classics earth-fire-air-water and maybe light and dark/Demonic is enough please.
Spell duration should be inversly propotional to it’s level rounded up with some base rounds.For example if you have slow with a base duration of 2 as an example and you have a spellpower of 10 it should last base duration+ Spellpower inverse of spell level so 2 + (10/(1/5))=4 rounds but if you have a 4th level spell for example with base duration of 2 it would be 2+(10/(4/5))=10 rounds. Or put a fixed duration that maybe changes with artifacts.Duration becomes meaningless when you have high spell power.
Horde skill set should be kept; I liked having my goblins deal 1 more damage or having +2 hps.
The siege should be reworked. Maybe there should be some options aganist flying units. Balista should be definitely anti-flying. War machines performance should be dependent on the crew number which is the lowest tier melee units.So goblins are going to man your catapults and balistas not behemoths.It could be interesting the Warmachine could be indestructible (still blockable maybe in terms of balista) but it’s performance is highly dependent on your creature numbers.Again the performance of towers in the castle could depend on this as well. It would be another way to boost horde playing style.
Captains quarters from heroes 2 was a nice addition.You could cast some spells etc.An improved version of it such as “governor” would fit well.
Week of the plague is always fun . Whirlpools are not so much fun.
Mixed neutrals and in the editor map makes things interesting. So if you place random Lvl2 on the map it has template of match ups to chose from. For example pikemans accompanied by some archers or cavalry accompanied by some swordsmen. Liches accompanied by wraiths or zombies Or iron golems and a few mages or some cyclops with wolf raiders etc etc you get the idea.Will spice up things. Random neutral creature templates would greatly add flavor. Even at some horde level they can be accompanied by a captain quarter cast a few spells.
Creature banks are nice but not the whole game should depend on it.
Some random bandit army spawn would be nice they would get rid of one creature stack heroes. Once you clear out the area there are no “disturbences” around you area that much.So small threat here an there would spice things up.
Don’t overdo creatures casting spells please 1-2 spells per casting creature is enough.Maybe one or two heroes could give extra spells to those creatures? Who knows.
Overdone mechanical units and elves riding this riding that,having cloaks casting spells kind of line ups are boring.Everybody having a dragon is boring.Mid level creatures such as pit fiends,thunderbirds lifted to the 7th level didn’t work.
Overdone race-dependent skills are boring.Race-dependent skills should build on to the top of common skill sets and spells like teleportation strike etc.I don’t mind having them but don’t make skill tree that goes too deep and non other races can access.
Governor was effective but boring.Estates is nice such things like resource snatching or some mining benefit things are nice but shouldn’t replace main skillsets. Same with scholar, it should have a purpose.
Zero loss combats are boring. Combats should mean something if you don’t have the overwhelming odds.Cut down resurrection type of spells or means. If you are not siege equiped sieges should make you suffer.
Be careful with diplomacy it can make or break games.
I don’t mind old heroes returning. I don’t care if it is aganist the lore.
No item/resource snatching with dimension door or fly.Creatures should protect them.No dimension door hopping like 4 screens away either.
Fog of war could return after a while maybe.So If you don’t have a hero there for 1 month the fog of war should close down.
Spell rerolling in HOTA is nice. Spell balance is paramount. Tomes of magic should be very rare or if you use one the other should be locked out. Eagle Eye could be an option for barbarian shamans to learn spells or cast it for free in the next round or two. Otherwise think very carefully why there is a skill called eagle eye not all nostalgia is good .
Morale and luck are nice but shouldn’t be definitive.Mixed creature armies or armies with opposite ideologies should have very negative bonuses even to the movement speed.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 25, 2024 02:12 PM |
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Valeriy said:
Heroes of Might and Magic Olden Era is the upcoming remake of Heroes of Might and Magic 3.
...
When it comes to creating a remake, if the game is too similar, we already have Heroes 3. If the game is too different, it might not deliver on the promise.
It doesn't seem right to suggest it's a remake of Heroes 3, I don't think that's what the devs intend to do here. It's a new take on the NWC-era universe, so it naturally draws a lot of inspiration from the old games, but it's hopefully more than just a remake. With everything shown so far I'm confident that it is.
What I think you mean is that it has a lot of Heroes 3 elements, which I'll agree with. And that's reassuring, because finally Ubisoft seems to have gotten the memo: a game that goes back to the roots with H1-3 at the foundation and fresh new content built on top of that. In this way you have a reliable core for the game so that the Heroes identity and familiarity is kept, while also having enough wiggle room to introduce new factions, creatures, heroes, mechanics, etc. that keeps the game progressing forward. This is what the community has been asking of them for a long time and they finally bent the ear and took notice.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted August 25, 2024 02:33 PM |
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Not that I expect my opinion will influence the developers much (and probably, I would innovate too much anyway), but what I think:
What should be kept
Well, H3 had a lot of good things. What would have to be hit, for me, is capturing the feel of the game. For that, music and graphics play a big role ofcourse. Also gameplay basics like having town screens, unit stacks, hexagons, unit tiers (not necessarily 7), and a lot more.
Also, I think, H3 had a good "flow" in terms of how long stuff took, both in turn numbers and ind RL-time. (the loading between turns is a major thing that puts me off whenever I tried H5 again, and I never had that in H3).
Something that was, on this forum, now and then discussed, is the role of heroes and I think they should stay aside the battlefield like in H3, maybewith attack abilities like in H5.
Town developement could, for me, be even more detailed, but worked great as well.
I, personally, liked the way H3 did its campaigns. There could be details changed, but I really liked the general system.
Finally, there are must have features that should be in, imo:
A simple-to-use map editor for example. I never felt a map editor more accessible, however limited maybe, than the one in H3.
Also a good-working hot seat mode is a must for me, as well!
What should be improved I - just considering H3
I think there is a lot of room for improvement from H3 still.
First and biggest place: balance! I loved the feel of all factions (not counting conflux, because... well conflux), but it was so obvious which were weak and strong. Even as a child with no big understanding in that field I could get that. And it goes beyond that: skills, units, spells, artifacts ... all that could use more balance. What I mean by that: I want to take any faction and for it have several ways to go in terms of playstyle. I want both rush and long-building strategies to work, as well as many other things. I want might-, magic- and hybrid-hero builds to all work well. I do not want "must-have" skills or spells or heroes - or anything, actually.
At the same time, I think more diversity in the faction (gameplaywise) could be possible, and at the same time more uniqueness. I even think I could live with a little assymmetry - not in ingame effectiveness, but in playstyle. One faction not using gold, or one not using towns like other factions? why not...
Also I personally think H3 could use a bit more detail (although it always is hard to do that without breaking above-mentioned accessibility). I would like more things to fiddle with.
AI is also an obious choice btw.
To reach those goals, I think a lot could be won by taking a look at H4 and H5 (potentially 6 and 7 as well, but I never played them...) and think about what worked well in them. Because a lot of things did! Jus the whole packages were not as great as in H3.
What should be improved II - good stuff about H4 & 5
For this section, note that I like the basic ideas, but they should be still improved, imho.
H5 is the easier one so I'll start with this. Things I liked in H5 and would love to see in H3:
-faction-specific skills
-skill-trees rather than just the simple progression of H3
-diversifying creatures by them having more abilities
-alternative upgrades
-the initiative row system in comparison to a simple turn order
H4 now...
-capturing heroes in prisons
-caravans
-units moving without heroes
-advanced hero classes
-terrain being reflected visually in the town screen (just in nice visualy, you know?  )
Innovations i'd like
-more diverse combat maps and goals. I think not just always having total annihilation or capitulation/retreat end the battle could be enriching. And I'd love things like maze-like underground maps with small tunnels. This would include more diverse defensive structures for towns AND more diverse "war machines".
-maybe terrain having more impact overall. Not necessarily as strong as I made it in ideas of mine presented in the altar (years ago, I know  ). But more effect than before.
-more diversity in war machines.
-more interesting stuff to do on the adventure map.
That for now....
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Pollo2002
Famous Hero
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posted August 25, 2024 06:13 PM |
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All I want are 4 changes:
-Better support of mechanics for Simultaneous turns
-Remove exploits (Chaining, poor Man portal, hit and run)
-Being allowed to choose how many Heroes are allowed in the template/map/mode
- True fog of war
That is all I want.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted August 25, 2024 06:46 PM |
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Full modability support, like Civilization 4/5, Skyrim, Anno series and such. When you involve the community into the creation process and make sure they can achieve whatever they want - for all tastes, styles and ages, you hit the jackpot.
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted August 25, 2024 08:20 PM |
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Pollo2002 said:
-Better support of mechanics for Simultaneous turns
I don't know, I dont think I need or even really want that in a homm game. Never a fan of that mode in the aow-series either. I prefer them as classic tbs... but that's taste, of course.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted August 26, 2024 02:06 PM |
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Maximum giant 256x256 map size, thanks
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted August 26, 2024 02:21 PM |
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Among other things, I'd like a bunch of heroes (not every one, but at least a few) that don't start with a faction skill already loaded, so any faction can make use of them.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 26, 2024 02:48 PM |
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KnightOfEnroth
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 26, 2024 05:34 PM |
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Keep
- Might and Magic heroes. It was disappointing to see them consolidated in HV. My understanding from translated interviews is that this is already done, so good job 
- At least for single player, let's keep some of the dumb broken stuff that's fun to play with. We can do different balance in MP if we need to. People love super broken Necromancy in SP, so let them have fun with it, for one example. Fanbase is mostly playing SP and we want to keep that feeling fun.
- Very easy-to-use and functional map editor. HIII map editor is very responsive and reasonably intuitive. "As user-friendly as the HIII editor" should be the minimum target.
- Lots of scenarios! MP focus is fine if the devs are passionate about it, but there should be a lot of interesting SP scenarios still, as that's what most players will be playing.
Improve
- Recruiting reinforcements from your town without need for hero chaining or constant Town Portal. HV already addressed this well with caravans. We can do that again, or something new is fine. I didn't like HVI global recruitment as much, but I will keep an open mind to any experiments in Early Access. There will always be time to make changes if something is unpopular.
- Movement speed and Initiative need to be decoupled like the later games did.
- More in-depth & easily accessible random map generation options. HIII random map generator is already great, but it's 2024, we can do even better.
Innovate
- Let's innovate what a Might hero means and a Magic hero means, to make each of them even more clearly defined.
- Let's add more to make each town unique, like HV did. Sounds like this is already planned with kingdom/faction upgrades - great
- It would be great if we can figure out a way to promote multiple smaller battles vs opponents throughout the game, rather than one giant high stakes battle between max armies after which the loser can't recover. Maybe game modes like king of the hill with easier retreating with your army intact, with some restrictions to prevent spell abuse. If we can't figure anything out that's OK, current system is fine.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted August 26, 2024 06:26 PM |
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Edited by Ghost at 19:02, 26 Aug 2024.
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@-Remove exploits (Chaining, poor Man portal, hit and run)@
@Recruiting reinforcements from your town without need for hero chaining or constant Town Portal@
H4! You cannot do chaining in H4.. H4 has caravan! Hmm Town Gate (Town Portal) is also nerfed in H4.. It's only way.. But hit & run can't change.. When we know about Harpies, Vampires, Sprites, Dragon Flies etc When player can find a new hit & run styles/strategies are Zombies, spells etc.. The same chess.. Players learn a new chess tricks.. Because of game board where is square, and HoMM used hexes.. HoMM belonged to waiting, defence for bonus, etc But chaining, TP have already made a solution in H4..
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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supertommy
Known Hero
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posted August 26, 2024 08:06 PM |
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Valeriy said:
Heroes of Might and Magic Olden Era is the upcoming remake of Heroes of Might and Magic 3.
I don't understand this quote, it's not a remake. It's a prequel to the first HoMM.
"Olden Era is set before the events of the first game, and will take players back to the world of Enroth and the continent of Jadame."
https://news.ubisoft.com/en-us/article/62HpoWQkAIVogVkoVk8JuJ/heroes-of-might-and-magic-olden-era-unveiled-at-gamescom
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted August 26, 2024 09:55 PM |
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Stevie said:
So you're saying neutral heroes.
Yes. I mean, I'm not against the idea of faction skills in general, but having them applied to every hero at the start of the game reduces replayability, rather than increasing it. And on that note, I'd also like to include a couple of new town buildings, the Collegium, which is basically a University inside your town, where one of the skills is always your faction one, and a second one (I haven't decided on the name yet), which is attached to the Mage Guild, and teaches one spell school secondary skill. This assumes the skill system is like H1-H5, when you select from a couple randomly chosen skills when you level up, rather than just having the entire list laid out for you.
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Charrclaw
Known Hero
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posted September 09, 2024 09:14 AM |
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A small thing, but I wish our screen was bordered by ornate frame like in pre H5 heroes.
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Pollo2002
Famous Hero
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posted September 10, 2024 07:13 PM |
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Change:
- Remove as many heroes 3 exploits as possible (Hit and run, Mass Slow, Hero chaining, Sacrifice a hero on purpose to teleport it)
-Make a Better Magic system (heroes 3 is atrocious, in fact I would make a combination of Heroes 1, 2 & 5)
-Fog of war.
Honestly I don't think i need anything else, give me that and is the best game of the series.
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gnollking
Supreme Hero
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posted September 10, 2024 09:56 PM |
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Pollo2002 said:
- Remove as many heroes 3 exploits as possible (Hit and run, Mass Slow, Hero chaining, Sacrifice a hero on purpose to teleport it)
How is hero chaining an exploit? That's one of the most strategic things you can do while exploring. It has quite a low skill floor, but high skill ceiling, rewarding the best of the best players. Getting good at chaining is just getting good at the game. Poor man's town portal seems to be explicitly encouraged in the game as well. I think I saw some post in the Discord (or mentioned by Lexiav, who played the game), that there's a special third slot in taverns for heroes who have retreated. To me, that seems great. You can't lose your heroes to the RNG of the tavern.
Pollo2002 said:
-Fog of war.
Can you elaborate on this? The fog of war looks to be pretty much the same as HoMM 3, with a lot of customization options for the visuals. If you mean the type of fog where you can still see the terrain, but not any heroes, that's a bad idea for HoMM, imo.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted September 10, 2024 10:18 PM |
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@Pollo2002
I already said chaining can be realized the same as H4.. So we can hope they make a rule..
But we can't install Hit & Run.. Doesn't exist! My Hit & Run view/vision/opinion that only one hexes movement is already Hit & Run.. How about you laugh from the player "mistake" the wrong move? Another thing 5 troops go to defensive for bonus, but two troops are waiting for your move, it belongs to Hit & Run.. Should be prohibited waiting and defensive? Another what? Spells like Remove Obstacle, Force Field, etc
Mass Slow? You forgot Mass Haste/Speed.. It does strong Hit & Run from H4 players go to H8OE..
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted September 11, 2024 11:13 AM |
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Another thought, either ditch the grail in favour of a return to the Ultimate Artefacts of Heroes 1 and 2, or give several options when you build a grail building. Options I've considered:
* A lump sum of resources every day.
* Extra creatures that cost nothing to recruit.
* Heroes can learn all spells, and have huge amounts of magic when defending.
* Grants experience to visiting/garrisoned heroes.
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