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| Thread: Worst hero in game? | |
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Hourglass
Supreme Hero
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posted September 30, 2024 04:35 PM |
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Worst hero in game?
I did some digging, but to my surpise I didn't come across a thread that would speficially talk about this case. We have been talking ages about the reign of some very powerful heroes, but which heroes does find their way to the very bottom of the list?
I'm not huge into polls in these kinds of topics where the players could list multiple options, so no poll this time.
Instead, here are some questions to help out with discussions:
1) Which hero is ultimately the worst one?
2) Which hero is the worst to have as a main?
3) Worst might/magic hero?
4) Which hero isn't necessary the worst one, but you just for some reason really don't like/hate the hero? Tell us a story!
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted September 30, 2024 04:56 PM |
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That's a difficult one, as every hero can do the job. However, some come with a worthless skill, as Luck or Navigation, so you better avoid them if you want 8 enjoyable skills. Which you probably won't get 100% but still, thrive for a chance.
Then depends on the day, if day one I get in tavern, between the two with full army, the guy with only golems or only dwarves, I always avoid him and go for whatever is else. Not only his few units won't be of any help, but he will start with few movement for that turn.
So for me there is no such as worse, but a few heroes penalized by original settings. Yet they can shine too, but why the effort, there are others to pick from.
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Era II mods and utilities
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted September 30, 2024 06:57 PM |
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One hero comes to mind immediately: Serena.
Tower has level 5 Mage Guild + Library + 5 heroes with Scholar, so Eagle Eye skill and specialty seems especially useless at Tower.
In HotA there is even Spell Research, making Eagle Eye even more pointless.
If we count HotA heroes Victoria is also pretty terrible, Wisdom and Learning + Land Mine specialty, this is just hopeless.
I am not a huge fan of Ballistics heroes either, this skill seems extremely situational to me and often it does'nt do anything at all. (AI heroes NEEDS it though.)
Special mention goes to Melodia for having Luck AND Fortune specialty and Fortune does'nt even work on dragons and Inteus with his stupid Bloodlust specialty, when 3 high tier Conflux units are immune to it and 2 are ranged...
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted September 30, 2024 07:44 PM |
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Edited by Ghost at 16:22, 01 Oct 2024.
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Ok now we talking about Serena..
RoE was ok, thus Fear spell, but useless Serena became in expansion and HotA.. Only WoG/ERA is a very good:
Eagle Eye I - gain a choice of spell when going up a level (1-2, 2-3, 3-4)
Eagle Eye II - Eagle Eye grants the ability to counter a beneficial spell cast by the enemy. Drains 8 spell points from caster (7 with water magic skill).
Basic: 10% chance
Advanced: 20% chance
Expert: 30% chance
Bird of Perception, Stoic Watchman, and Emblem of Cognizance increase the chance. Eagle Eye artifacts now form a combination artifact that further increases the chance to counter a spell by 30%.
I'm using Eagle Eye II script..
Ok Serena's skill, I pick Water, thus Dispel.. If Josephine, so I pick Fire and Air.. When Josephine has Sorcery and Haste.. Why? Fast that your spell is Haste.. You visit a Sawmill, Treasure Chest, random resource, Learning Stone also fight against Monsters until your territory is done, and then maybe you go to your town back by noob strategy or pro player gives armies to Josephine.. But Serena with Dispel.. You must to find Scholar or to build Mage Guild by noob strategy.. But thing says Serena is so bad  Maybe it sounds hard, but simple strategy.. Daremyth? First Air.. Halon? Earth! So their biography!! Ok what about might heroes? Josephine has Golems mean Tactics.. And then you don't need to think the best, but you develop so much fast than the best..
EDIT
Simple skill tree by Tower.. When you see her 8 skills, and I get an Earth in 9-10th.. Ok her 8 skills are variation, you know that her skills can't always the same, thus Fire or Air, and then military skills can be Offense, etc Remember Alchemists always have 3 magics and/or 3 military skills.. Hmm Serena? Only in RoE.. Ok fun what? Cyra! Tower's strategy required many heroes, but Serena no longer in expansion, and Serena can play in only walkthrought maps.. Hmm many players don't understand a Tower.. Maybe Fire.. In H4 a combination of Order and Chaos is a very powerful to Academy.. So no needed more story..
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted October 01, 2024 10:01 AM |
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Salamandre said:
That's a difficult one, as every hero can do the job. However, some come with a worthless skill, as Luck or Navigation, so you better avoid them if you want 8 enjoyable skills.
I agree, while specialties shine, the most important is to get the right built.
This is why I hate Alchemists, always come with at least one worthless skill and have the worst skill tree of all. There is no redemption for Neela, cause of that. Any barbarian beats most specialists anyway, specially if you can get him Water (SP of course).
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Hourglass
Supreme Hero
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posted October 01, 2024 04:35 PM |
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To add something of my own to the conversation: I've personally ranked all the heroes, and my currently lowest rated hero is Oris - a battle mage Eagle Eye specialist, who starts with Protection from Air.
I've also rated Serena as the worst in the past, as she offers pretty much nothing for the early game - no figthing stats, no fighting secondary skills, just Eagle eye and Dispel, which will likely not benefit you at all during early game. Basically, she starts with pretty much nothing. Currently I've increased Serena's rank slightly, as she has a third point in knowledge, meaning that all spells in the game can be cast (namely DD and Armageddon through scroll/tome), and in general she turns a bit more capable if combined with Scholar/many available key spells.
Currently, my lowest tier hero ranking is (worst-least worst)
Oris (Awful starting secondary skills, probably the least useful starting spell, only 1 knowledge as a mage)
Sanya (Similiar to Oris, only slightly better casting stats)
Zubin (Very bad spell to start with, no real synergy with Stronghold, Artillery without additional utility, only 1 knowledge)
Axsis (Scaling specialty asks to be used as a main but Mysticism doesn't give any real advantage, very poor support hero with very bad starting spell.)
Tiva (Only slightly better than Sanya due having Stone skin)
Olema (Ballistics, already meh weakness usable only once due bad mana pool)
Melodia (just having luck does not make very consistant hero, no real strategy potential)
Serena (No fighting stats, weak starting spell)
Uland (Ballistics without a way to really utilize it)
Nimbus (whereas okay with Necro, but even there clearly the weakest. Necromancy even less useful than Wisdom for non-necro town users.
It should be noted that whereas I believe all the heroes can be ranked and the worst hero can be found, every hero is still very functional; all heroes can move, carry troops, fight, cast spells under common rules etc, so it's not like even the worst hero couldn't overcome the odds sometimes.
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted October 01, 2024 04:46 PM |
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Hourglass said:
Currently, my lowest tier hero ranking is (worst-least worst)
Oris (Awful starting secondary skills, probably the least useful starting spell, only 1 knowledge as a mage)
Sanya (Similiar to Oris, only slightly better casting stats)
Zubin (Very bad spell to start with, no real synergy with Stronghold, Artillery without additional utility, only 1 knowledge)
Axsis (Scaling specialty asks to be used as a main but Mysticism doesn't give any real advantage, very poor support hero with very bad starting spell.)
Tiva (Only slightly better than Sanya due having Stone skin)
Olema (Ballistics, already meh weakness usable only once due bad mana pool)
Melodia (just having luck does not make very consistant hero, no real strategy potential)
Serena (No fighting stats, weak starting spell)
Uland (Ballistics without a way to really utilize it)
Nimbus (whereas okay with Necro, but even there clearly the weakest. Necromancy even less useful than Wisdom for non-necro town users.
Pretty good list, I more or less agree with it.
Out of the 10 heroes you listed, 5 are Eagle Eye specialists. That just proves Eagle Eye needs a big buff or be removed completely.
If Spell Reserach is allowed, I don't think Eagle Eye heroes, artifacts or Eagle Eye skill should be allowed at all. But then we need 8 new heroes to replace Eagle Eye heroes...
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purerogue3
Hired Hero
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posted October 01, 2024 04:52 PM |
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Lol, I seek out Zubin to play sometimes.
I don't know how you can 'rank' without a sophisticated metric - even then it is impossible to account for all the strategies/tactics, as I am sure someone like Ben80 can tell you.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted October 01, 2024 04:59 PM |
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I know them.. Zubin is a good hero.. You get a Air.. And you meet him Campaigns.. Why? You learn skill trees.. But I guess Artillery, so never learned skill trees..
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted October 01, 2024 06:16 PM |
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Ghost said:
I know them.. Zubin is a good hero.. You get a Air.. And you meet him Campaigns.. Why? You learn skill trees.. But I guess Artillery, so never learned skill trees..
When I was about 9 years old I tried to make a Custom map and for a reason I can't recall now I made Zubin the protagonist. Precision isn't so bad.
As for the worst, Eagle Eye specialists maybe.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Bytebandit
Promising
Famous Hero
Soul Merchant
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posted October 01, 2024 10:23 PM |
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Worst Hero?
Any Hero who doesn't have Wisdom, Earth Magic, Air Magic, Water Magic, Logistics, Estates, Resistance and Intelligence.
(Replace Resistance with Nobility for WoG)
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted October 01, 2024 10:59 PM |
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Bytebandit said:
Worst Hero?
Any Hero who doesn't have Wisdom, Earth Magic, Air Magic, Water Magic, Logistics, Estates, Resistance and Intelligence.
(Replace Resistance with Nobility for WoG)
Not a fan of Offense, Armorer, Archery or Tactics?
Also why would you pick Estates on a main hero?, save that for your secondary heroes. 
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted October 02, 2024 06:42 AM |
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Phoenix4ever said:
why would you pick Estates on a main hero?, save that for your secondary heroes.
I feel the world is getting crazy, I'm agreeing with Phoenix over Bytebandit...
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted October 02, 2024 12:32 PM |
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Resistance? You replace.. What? Water changes Fire.. When Resistance means Fire is coming.. If you reject a skill, so skill tree goes to mess.. So your hero image is pure magician, if Fire.. I strongly recommend.. In H4 you can play might, magician or combination.. Another pure magician hero class is Elementalist.. So bad class, thus Resistance, IMO.. I pick Planeswalk.. Thus Alchemist is better than Elementalist.. But H4 classes haven't a problem.. I don't get why a Estates.. Only you played dead skill tree with in someone map.. You are boss! If WoG, where is Market of Time, so ok then..
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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Hourglass
Supreme Hero
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posted October 02, 2024 04:01 PM |
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purerogue3 said:
I don't know how you can 'rank' without a sophisticated metric - even then it is impossible to account for all the strategies/tactics, as I am sure someone like Ben80 can tell you.
Well, the only metric that would kinda make sense here would be something that was based on history of played games, then we could at least judge something about each heroes win%. Sadly, we don't have that kind of information.
As a lone writer, the list is entirely based on my own experience and observations. In the past I tried thinking of a system that was somehow based on points, (eg hero starting with Offence gives X points, good starting spell gives Y points) but I ended up scratching it, since so many synergies and small details get buried under such thing.
purerogue3 said:
Lol, I seek out Zubin to play sometimes.
By all means keep seeking out, the list was there just to add something for the discussion, not to make anyone regret their gaming decisions.
The reason I personally rated Zubin low, is the problem I personally have with Zubin is the fact that in my eyes, he doesn't really have anything going for him. He doesn't really add anything to your roster when played just as secondary hero. With normal base stats, the slight damage buff is added for 1 turn only. In practice, casting a normal Bless would work better for you almost in all cases. Not only you would almost always deal more damage, but it's also cheaper spell, and even buffs the melee damage. Having Artillery is also very problematic, since even it isn't the worst skill, it's clearly among the weakeast ones.
And when played as a main, Zubin kinda ends up having the same fate as magic class creature specialists (eg Ingham, Theodorus) - if the player simply cares about the combat stats of certain unit, it's just better to play with a regular Might hero instead, as they naturally have more attack and defence, and instead of buffing just one creature, the bonuses are given to all creatures. Creatures with Expert Archery will always deal more damage than creatures affected by Zubin's Presicion, even when cast on Expert level.
The root problem is the very conservative attack bonus. Any hero can cast Precision, and only lose very small amount of damage in comparison to Zubin. In practice they could just instead go and simply cast Bless and increase the damage of whole team. Or perhaps a regular damage spell.
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted October 02, 2024 04:46 PM |
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Kinda weird how they chose to split up attack bonus with Bloodlust and Precision, one is for melee one is for ranged. (And Bloodlust is even blocked by fire immune creatures.)
Bless on the other hand affects both melee and ranged damage and it even counters Curse.
Bless>Bloodlust>Precision imo.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted October 02, 2024 05:10 PM |
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Zubin isn't bad.. But I don't choose Zubin, thus Artillery.. Why? When I enjoy driving Volkswagen and Mini Cooper, if I'm millionaire or more, I drive Volkswagen and/or Mini Cooper.. I'm not sick.. Artillery is a powerful or much 10 times better in WoG, it gives/takes enemy's creature speed, one shoot causes 1 speed lesser.. If you've Expert Artillery means 2 shoots cause 2 speed lesser.. I played against Zombies with 1 speed, for example.. Fun! My strategy is different.. And I don't enjoy Artillery.. When we can find tutorial, etc about Artillery and Precision.. PRO players enjoy them! No bad.. So different thing!
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted October 02, 2024 05:13 PM |
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And Castle or Tower can buy Zubin.. In H4 players buy another hero class so often, but no H3.. I'm playing different heroes..
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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purerogue3
Hired Hero
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posted October 02, 2024 05:33 PM |
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Hourglass said:
I tried thinking of a system that was somehow based on points, (eg hero starting with Offence gives X points, good starting spell gives Y points) but I ended up scratching it, since so many synergies and small details get buried under such thing.
Basic AI is sufficient for most games as even chess involves too many possibilities for a game.
You'll find simple heuristics are used by programmers, which players learn, then that is the level at which the computer is expected to play. A 10% better result would require n^10 times the code.
Hourglass said:
the problem I personally have with Zubin is the fact that in my eyes, he doesn't really have anything going for him. He doesn't really add anything to your roster when played just as secondary hero. With normal base stats, the slight damage buff is added for 1 turn only. In practice, casting a normal Bless would work better for you almost in all cases. Not only you would almost always deal more damage, but it's also cheaper spell, and even buffs the melee damage. Having Artillery is also very problematic, since even it isn't the worst skill, it's clearly among the weakeast ones.
It is +9 for level 1/2 so a mixed army with four shooters it starts to become devastating. Normally you would keep your original town army, but he allows you to borg, the lower the level the better.
The spell also works on ballista, there you have your 4.5th army..
Bless is much better for nearly all armies, so Adela is probably always better than Zubin, but everybody knows that.
Zubin is fun because he is mid-tier with lots of upside given correct condiitions.
Hourglass said:
And when played as a main, Zubin kinda ends up having the same fate as magic class creature specialists (eg Ingham, Theodorus) - if the player simply cares about the combat stats of certain unit, it's just better to play with a regular Might hero instead, as they naturally have more attack and defence, and instead of buffing just one creature, the bonuses are given to all creatures. Creatures with Expert Archery will always deal more damage than creatures affected by Zubin's Presicion, even when cast on Expert level.
The root problem is the very conservative attack bonus. Any hero can cast Precision, and only lose very small amount of damage in comparison to Zubin.
That's certain heroes being overpowered, you should mod to scale so an archery specialist "assumes" 3 shooters, offense 4.5 melee-ers equivalents vs the unit specialist, spell specialists etc.
Basic balancing.
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Hourglass
Supreme Hero
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posted October 02, 2024 07:14 PM |
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purerogue3 said:
It is +9 for level 1/2 so a mixed army with four shooters it starts to become devastating. Normally you would keep your original town army, but he allows you to borg, the lower the level the better.
The spell also works on ballista, there you have your 4.5th army..
Bless is much better for nearly all armies, so Adela is probably always better than Zubin, but everybody knows that.
Zubin is fun because he is mid-tier with lots of upside given correct condiitions.
Yes, the combination is +9 attack, translating into 27,5 to 45% more damage. However, Zubin by himself adds only from 2,5 to 15%, which is nearly nothing. In practice, just Basic Archery alone often leads into more damage. Also, Adela is not needed for Bless to beat Precision.
And four different low level shooters? I mean, think about the practicality; yes, you could potentially deal a lot of damage, but only against groups of slow/non-theatning enemies the more "standard" group would match anyway. And the standard group is easily better against something relevant, such as group of higher level troops, fighting against another hero, creature bank etc.
The point of my list is in consistency - the heroes that you can expect to do well in many different maps/scenarios etc will be placed on top, whereas heroes that you would usually expect not to do very well, or would need a lot of work to be relevant will be put on the bottom. Like I said earlier and as we all know, every hero can win and beat the map.
Hourglass said:
And when played as a main, Zubin kinda ends up having the same fate as magic class creature specialists (eg Ingham, Theodorus) - if the player simply cares about the combat stats of certain unit, it's just better to play with a regular Might hero instead, as they naturally have more attack and defence, and instead of buffing just one creature, the bonuses are given to all creatures. Creatures with Expert Archery will always deal more damage than creatures affected by Zubin's Presicion, even when cast on Expert level.
The root problem is the very conservative attack bonus. Any hero can cast Precision, and only lose very small amount of damage in comparison to Zubin.
purerogue3 said:
That's certain heroes being overpowered, you should mod to scale so an archery specialist "assumes" 3 shooters, offense 4.5 melee-ers equivalents vs the unit specialist, spell specialists etc.
Basic balancing.
Can't really say that I agree here, Archery is very common among the heroes, and it's most definietly not overpowered. IMO Zubin should somehow match at least the very basic game components to be considered at least an average hero.
Also, I don't think grouping up heroes is a very good idea. One is picked at the start, and there rest come out of Tavern in random order. There's no list to choose if I'm willing to hire a hero with something certain.
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